Amtrak : Best Kept Secrets

[user 1215]

Here's one more sleeper tip. If you're riding in a roomette by yourself, you may want to consider only having the upper bunk made for sleeping and keep the chairs for sitting. Makes it easier to switch from sleeping to computer work to looking out the window, etc. - especially if you're ADD like me and can never really sleep much on the train and you find yourself getting up at 3 AM to go to the sleeper, back to your room, sit, read, play on laptop, try to sleep some more, etc......

Downside is that the top bunk has such a moment arm from the center of gravity that you get quite a bit of rocking and swaying. But I guess that's why I take the train! Afterwards, I tend to have the 'sea-motion' feeling while lying in my very secure and steady bed at home.

 

[gswager]

When making reservation with Amtrak, have the sleeper layout, esp. with Superliner, ready. Then, I call the Amtrak reservation agent to make reservation with roomette. After obtaining the room number, I check on the sleeper layout to make sure it's upper or lower level. Mine was lower level, so I asked her for upper level. As a results, the price as increased about $100! From what I've heard, the price on lower level may be cheaper than upper level which I found out few minutes ago. So, I asked her to swap the prices around the roomettes and behold, I get the cheaper price!

 

[Trogdor]

Do you mean that you got the cheaper price for the upstairs room?

 

[gswager]

Do you mean that you got the cheaper price for the upstairs room?

Let's say price of lower room is $239 and the upper room is $340. There are two upper rooms left. I told her that I didn't know about the price difference between upper and lower. Luckily, she made a change, just a price swap.

 

[Trogdor]

In other words, you got the upstairs room for $239 (using that example).

That is valid.

According to a contact of mine (and I know this forum seems to go back and forth on this detail), prices aren't assigned to specific rooms. What happens is that, when there is only one room left at a particular bucket, that fare gets locked up as soon as someone calls and asks for a price quote. If someone then wants to change rooms, that lower bucket fare is no longer available, since it's already "taken." The agent would have to release the room that is automatically assigned (and therefore, also make that fare bucket available again), and then start over again, picking up the room the passenger wants.

So, as I understand it (using your example), let's say there are two rooms left, rooms 9 (upstairs) and 11 (downstairs). There is one B bucket fare left at $239, and one A bucket left at $340. A passenger calls and wants a room. The agent immediately locks in the room before quoting the price, so that someone else doesn't steal the room in the middle of the transaction. Now the passenger has room 11 at $239. But the passenger decides he wants room 9 instead. Since room 11 is still locked, the B bucket fare is no longer available, so the only way to trade rooms is to pay the A bucket fare. However, if the agent cancels the reservation on room 11, and starts over, and then selects room 9, now that B bucket fare is available again, since there isn't a current reservation using the last fare at that bucket.

It isn't the prettiest way of doing things, but I gather that's the best they can do given Arrow's limitations (or maybe there is some intentional reason for throwing that extra step in there). When people keep getting told that the only way to change rooms right off the bat (i.e. when they're making the reservation, rather than later on when Amtrak may have decided to raise the fares across the board) is to pay a higher fare, it's probably either an agent that doesn't want to be bothered with the extra work, or the agent hasn't been fully trained on how to do that properly. Don't be surprised if it's the latter. I've had many experiences with agents that didn't know how to process my reservation correctly, simply because I was doing something "complicated" (such as trying to get a NARP discount, or trying to use one of those AGR one-class upgrade coupons).

Just because an agent gives you an answer doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one. In this case (if I'm reading your explanation correctly), the agent actually made the room swap the correct way, and you didn't have to pay a higher fare.

 

[had8ley]

In other words, you got the upstairs room for $239 (using that example).
That is valid.

According to a contact of mine (and I know this forum seems to go back and forth on this detail), prices aren't assigned to specific rooms. What happens is that, when there is only one room left at a particular bucket, that fare gets locked up as soon as someone calls and asks for a price quote. If someone then wants to change rooms, that lower bucket fare is no longer available, since it's already "taken." The agent would have to release the room that is automatically assigned (and therefore, also make that fare bucket available again), and then start over again, picking up the room the passenger wants.

So, as I understand it (using your example), let's say there are two rooms left, rooms 9 (upstairs) and 11 (downstairs). There is one B bucket fare left at $239, and one A bucket left at $340. A passenger calls and wants a room. The agent immediately locks in the room before quoting the price, so that someone else doesn't steal the room in the middle of the transaction. Now the passenger has room 11 at $239. But the passenger decides he wants room 9 instead. Since room 11 is still locked, the B bucket fare is no longer available, so the only way to trade rooms is to pay the A bucket fare. However, if the agent cancels the reservation on room 11, and starts over, and then selects room 9, now that B bucket fare is available again, since there isn't a current reservation using the last fare at that bucket.

It isn't the prettiest way of doing things, but I gather that's the best they can do given Arrow's limitations (or maybe there is some intentional reason for throwing that extra step in there). When people keep getting told that the only way to change rooms right off the bat (i.e. when they're making the reservation, rather than later on when Amtrak may have decided to raise the fares across the board) is to pay a higher fare, it's probably either an agent that doesn't want to be bothered with the extra work, or the agent hasn't been fully trained on how to do that properly. Don't be surprised if it's the latter. I've had many experiences with agents that didn't know how to process my reservation correctly, simply because I was doing something "complicated" (such as trying to get a NARP discount, or trying to use one of those AGR one-class upgrade coupons).

Just because an agent gives you an answer doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one. In this case (if I'm reading your explanation correctly), the agent actually made the room swap the correct way, and you didn't have to pay a higher fare.

Robert;

I concur with all that you have posted. I'm sure Arrow was dreamt up by an ex-airline official as many of the original Amtrak officials were from airlines. (Who would have given up their job at Eastern Airlines thinking that Amtrak would last 36 years?) Anyway, when the reservation system was first put in you could buy a sleeper from New Orleans to Houston. The computer blocked the room for the entire route of the train thus eliminating any double selling down the road. The main reason I'm posting is because I'm a bedroom E person~ it's right next to everything you need including the stairs to the shower room. I've held on the phone for 30 minutes or better while the agent "sold" bedrooms A through D just to be able to get to E. Been there and done it more than once. And yes, I have been skunked by trying to change rooms; it was one of the few times I was forced to buy a coach ticket but luckily got a room once on board.

 

[MrFSS]

I concur with all that you have posted. I'm sure Arrow was dreamt up by an ex-airline official as many of the original Amtrak officials were from airlines. (Who would have given up their job at Eastern Airlines thinking that Amtrak would last 36 years?) Anyway, when the reservation system was first put in you could buy a sleeper from New Orleans to Houston. The computer blocked the room for the entire route of the train thus eliminating any double selling down the road. The main reason I'm posting is because I'm a bedroom E person~ it's right next to everything you need including the stairs to the shower room. I've held on the phone for 30 minutes or better while the agent "sold" bedrooms A through D just to be able to get to E. Been there and done it more than once. And yes, I have been skunked by trying to change rooms; it was one of the few times I was forced to buy a coach ticket but luckily got a room once on board.

Is there an order in which they sell the bedrooms? That is, do they always start with "A" and then "B", etc?

I have "E" on the Chief in February and bought it back in July to get the lowest bucket price, which I did.

Or, perhaps they start with "E" and go toward "A"?

Glad to hear you say you like "E". The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?

Thanks!

 

[had8ley]

I concur with all that you have posted. I'm sure Arrow was dreamt up by an ex-airline official as many of the original Amtrak officials were from airlines. (Who would have given up their job at Eastern Airlines thinking that Amtrak would last 36 years?) Anyway, when the reservation system was first put in you could buy a sleeper from New Orleans to Houston. The computer blocked the room for the entire route of the train thus eliminating any double selling down the road. The main reason I'm posting is because I'm a bedroom E person~ it's right next to everything you need including the stairs to the shower room. I've held on the phone for 30 minutes or better while the agent "sold" bedrooms A through D just to be able to get to E. Been there and done it more than once. And yes, I have been skunked by trying to change rooms; it was one of the few times I was forced to buy a coach ticket but luckily got a room once on board.

Is there an order in which they sell the bedrooms? That is, do they always start with "A" and then "B", etc?

I have "E" on the Chief in February and bought it back in July to get the lowest bucket price, which I did.

Or, perhaps they start with "E" and go toward "A"?

Glad to hear you say you like "E". The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?

Thanks!

Unfortunately they start with A which is just a tad smaller and next to the door as you well know.

 

[user 1215]

Here's a completely different tip. As AlanB has mentioned so many times, there are buckets for the coach fares. Keep in mind, these buckets are for each segment of travel. This could result in 16 different fares if you have two segments, 64 different fares if there are three segments. If you're booking far enough in advance and you have the patience, map out a few dates on each segment to see if you can get ALL of your segments in the lowest bucket.

 

[AlanB]

Is there an order in which they sell the bedrooms? That is, do they always start with "A" and then "B", etc?

I have "E" on the Chief in February and bought it back in July to get the lowest bucket price, which I did.

Or, perhaps they start with "E" and go toward "A"?

Glad to hear you say you like "E". The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?

Thanks!

Unfortunately they start with A which is just a tad smaller and next to the door as you well know.

I can't swear if it's the same on all trains, but in my experience they always start with E and go down from there. Just this past summer on the CZ, by the time I had enough points to book a bedroom, the only two rooms left were the A rooms. And on the Capitol a year ago, I got an E room and both the A & B were empty in my car, and the A was empty in the second car.

 

[AlanB]

The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?
Thanks!

Yes, it can be a problem if you have inconsiderate pax boarding late at night. But then I've also heard people walking down the hall late a night talking at the top of their lungs too, so it doesn't really matter where you are.

 

[MrFSS]

I concur with all that you have posted. I'm sure Arrow was dreamt up by an ex-airline official as many of the original Amtrak officials were from airlines. (Who would have given up their job at Eastern Airlines thinking that Amtrak would last 36 years?) Anyway, when the reservation system was first put in you could buy a sleeper from New Orleans to Houston. The computer blocked the room for the entire route of the train thus eliminating any double selling down the road. The main reason I'm posting is because I'm a bedroom E person~ it's right next to everything you need including the stairs to the shower room. I've held on the phone for 30 minutes or better while the agent "sold" bedrooms A through D just to be able to get to E. Been there and done it more than once. And yes, I have been skunked by trying to change rooms; it was one of the few times I was forced to buy a coach ticket but luckily got a room once on board.

Is there an order in which they sell the bedrooms? That is, do they always start with "A" and then "B", etc?

I have "E" on the Chief in February and bought it back in July to get the lowest bucket price, which I did.

Or, perhaps they start with "E" and go toward "A"?

Glad to hear you say you like "E". The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?

Thanks!

Unfortunately they start with A which is just a tad smaller and next to the door as you well know.

Wonder how I got the lowest bucket and "E"? Also, some friends are making this trip with us. When they called to reserve the identical passage, they were given "E' in the next car. They had wanted the room next to us so we could open them up in the daytime. The agent on the phone told them if they wanted "D" next to us it would cost more.

I can't swear if it's the same on all trains, but in my experience they always start with E and go down from there. Just this past summer on the CZ, by the time I had enough points to book a bedroom, the only two rooms left were the A rooms. And on the Capitol a year ago, I got an E room and both the A & B were empty in my car, and the A was empty in the second car.

Interesting - I've had the "C" room and the "B" room in the past and thought I was getting the lowest bucket since I booked so far in advance. Do they sell all the rooms in one car before moving to the next one? With what I said above I wouldn't think so!

 

[gswager]

In other words, you got the upstairs room for $239 (using that example).
That is valid.

According to a contact of mine (and I know this forum seems to go back and forth on this detail), prices aren't assigned to specific rooms. What happens is that, when there is only one room left at a particular bucket, that fare gets locked up as soon as someone calls and asks for a price quote. If someone then wants to change rooms, that lower bucket fare is no longer available, since it's already "taken." The agent would have to release the room that is automatically assigned (and therefore, also make that fare bucket available again), and then start over again, picking up the room the passenger wants.

So, as I understand it (using your example), let's say there are two rooms left, rooms 9 (upstairs) and 11 (downstairs). There is one B bucket fare left at $239, and one A bucket left at $340. A passenger calls and wants a room. The agent immediately locks in the room before quoting the price, so that someone else doesn't steal the room in the middle of the transaction. Now the passenger has room 11 at $239. But the passenger decides he wants room 9 instead. Since room 11 is still locked, the B bucket fare is no longer available, so the only way to trade rooms is to pay the A bucket fare. However, if the agent cancels the reservation on room 11, and starts over, and then selects room 9, now that B bucket fare is available again, since there isn't a current reservation using the last fare at that bucket.

It isn't the prettiest way of doing things, but I gather that's the best they can do given Arrow's limitations (or maybe there is some intentional reason for throwing that extra step in there). When people keep getting told that the only way to change rooms right off the bat (i.e. when they're making the reservation, rather than later on when Amtrak may have decided to raise the fares across the board) is to pay a higher fare, it's probably either an agent that doesn't want to be bothered with the extra work, or the agent hasn't been fully trained on how to do that properly. Don't be surprised if it's the latter. I've had many experiences with agents that didn't know how to process my reservation correctly, simply because I was doing something "complicated" (such as trying to get a NARP discount, or trying to use one of those AGR one-class upgrade coupons).

Just because an agent gives you an answer doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct one. In this case (if I'm reading your explanation correctly), the agent actually made the room swap the correct way, and you didn't have to pay a higher fare.

You may be right about it. However, it's odd that the price remained the same after checking again on the reservation system, like 1/2 hour after I booked it, to see how much the price has jumped.

 

[AlanB]

I can't swear if it's the same on all trains, but in my experience they always start with E and go down from there. Just this past summer on the CZ, by the time I had enough points to book a bedroom, the only two rooms left were the A rooms. And on the Capitol a year ago, I got an E room and both the A & B were empty in my car, and the A was empty in the second car.

Interesting - I've had the "C" room and the "B" room in the past and thought I was getting the lowest bucket since I booked so far in advance. Do they sell all the rooms in one car before moving to the next one? With what I said above I wouldn't think so!

It depends on the route as to exactly how things break down, but as a general rule based upon my experience they sell the cheapest rooms first. Let's say for example, that the SW Chief on the day that you are checking things has 2 bedrooms at the lowest bucket, 2 at the next bucket level, 2 at the next, 2 at the second highest, and 2 at the highest bucket. From my understanding of things, that would see 1 room in each car at each bucket level. Again assuming that all routes start with the E rooms first, that would mean that the two E's would be at the lowest bucket, the D's would then be the next cheapest, followed by the C's and so on.

Of course it's not always that simple as 2, 2, 2, 2, and 2. Amtrak can set it up anyway it wants, and I believe on some trains during peak season they don't even offer a low bucket room at all. But they don't sell out one car, before moving on to the next car. The cars are basically sold evenly to keep things balanced for the attendants. No point in one attendant going crazy with a full car, while the other attendant has two pax to care for.

 

[user 1215]

Here's an easy tip: Bring wetwipes - especially if you're in coach. They are great for cleaning spills, stains, and prevention of total rankness if you're going to be in coach overnight.

 

[had8ley]

I have "E" on the Chief in February and bought it back in July to get the lowest bucket price, which I did.
Or, perhaps they start with "E" and go toward "A"?

Glad to hear you say you like "E". The diagram shows the beds next to the wall where the stairs are - can there be a noise problem during middle of the night boarding of passengers?

Thanks!

I've never been woken by people coming or going up and down the stairway. I did find a passed out drunk at the bottom of the stairs once. Turns out he had been in coach and wandered back to the sleeper. They drug him back to his seat and let him sleep it off. As far as the wall goes I'd rather have it than a neighbor who decides to chat loudly or play spin the bottle all night. And believe me there have been times that I've stayed in the lounge car just to get away from my neighbors.

As far as where they start in selling rooms I am not positive but have been told that they have had to "sell" A through "D" to get to "E" more than once. Riverside (Amtrak reservations center) is different every time you call; you can get three agents with three different ways of booking all on the same day.

 

[DesertRat]

Since I always travel with my laptop, digital camera etc, I would like to get your tips and tricks on getting an electrical outlet in amtrak
In California, it is much easier, the local Cal train has outlet at every seat.

However my experience last January on Amtrak - from Montreal to Albany, Chicago, St paul and then Seattle which I archives in (pls click)

My Travel blog

I found out that there is normally only 2 outlets per car, they are located in the middle of the car and frequently hidden by the car seat (it is difficult to plug in to that outlet since it is only half visible). I wish an Amtrak staff can tell us here why this practice is adapted in this day of cell phones Ipod and laptop.

The other way is for you to go down from the passenger's car and go to the children's room or go near the toilet near the exit door. What a way to get electrical outlet! You can also go to the sightseeing car, there is one or two outlet there, but you have to compete with cell phone users who are charging their cell phones.

I also have some more tips on my travel blog here My Webpage

Hm. Any reason one can't bring one of those power bars, especially one with the flat wall plug?

 

[Seth Howell]

Since I always travel with my laptop, digital camera etc, I would like to get your tips and tricks on getting an electrical outlet in amtrak
In California, it is much easier, the local Cal train has outlet at every seat.

However my experience last January on Amtrak - from Montreal to Albany, Chicago, St paul and then Seattle which I archives in (pls click)

My Travel blog

I found out that there is normally only 2 outlets per car, they are located in the middle of the car and frequently hidden by the car seat (it is difficult to plug in to that outlet since it is only half visible). I wish an Amtrak staff can tell us here why this practice is adapted in this day of cell phones Ipod and laptop.

The other way is for you to go down from the passenger's car and go to the children's room or go near the toilet near the exit door. What a way to get electrical outlet! You can also go to the sightseeing car, there is one or two outlet there, but you have to compete with cell phone users who are charging their cell phones.

I also have some more tips on my travel blog here My Webpage

Hm. Any reason one can't bring one of those power bars, especially one with the flat wall plug?

Having an outlet is really a matter of luck. Most of the commuter type trains i.e. Regional, California Services have them at every seat. The Acela trains are really the only ones guaranteed to have an outlet. On the long-distance trains it depends on how long its been since the car has had a major overhaul. When they overhaul cars they put in outlets. When I went to Washington DC on the Crescent we had a remodeled car that had outlets and on the way back we were in an older one (still had 1970s style upholstery) did not. However all of the cars have outlets for vacuuming so depending on how crowded the train is you may be able to get a seat with these outlets. However if a train is sold out for any portion of its route seats will most likely be assigned.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

I was told that superliner coach seats swival, as a pair, 180 degrees. That the pivot point is between the window and isle seats. For whatever reason a coach might be added to the train with the seats faceing backwards. They must then press a lever and rotate each seat pair to face forward. That is why the stairwell might be on the right side in one coach and on the left in the coach ahead. I don't remember how it goes, but that is why the Electric AC plug might be blocked by the vertical seat portion of the seat ahead of you and if rotated that AC plug would be next to that seats passengers left knee(out in the open). Seat 19 may have the plug or seat 15 may have it. Confused? I am. Jim55

Swiveling the seats are how they 'turn' the cars (rather than physically turning the car around) to change the cars orientation from one direction to the other. Only locomotives (on a turntable) are actually turned for a particular run. Coaches have their seats swiveled, while sleepers, lounges, diners, etc. aren't really dependent on front-rear orientation.

Actually it depends on just where the train is terminated as to what method of "turning" the train is used. For example the Auto Train is turned using the seat method. But many other trains are turned by wying the train, rather than using the more man power intensive method of turning the seats. For example the Capitol Limited is almost always turned via the wye as it arrives into Chicago. This way it's already setup to run out as the SW Chief later that afternoon. All the station crews have to do now is clean, water, and reprovision the train.

And all long distance trains arriving into NY are turned using the loop track at Sunnyside yard.

Trains arriving in New Orleans are wyed as well. I wish they could do it after they let the passengers off though, a little annoying to arrive on a late train it pull half-way in the station and then start backing up to turn in the wye.

 

[had8ley]

Trains arriving in New Orleans are wyed as well. I wish they could do it after they let the passengers off though, a little annoying to arrive on a late train it pull half-way in the station and then start backing up to turn in the wye.

Years ago they had a brilliant passenger conductor (a real railroader) on the Crescent named Ed Chestnut. He would let my son blow the crossing whistle on the pig tail as we backed into the station. Ed would stop the train and let my son "big hole" the train. (Let all the air out of the train line.) It sure made a 10 year old kid happy~ he's running an engine in Houston as I write this. At most, it only adds 8-10 minutes to the trip.

 

[had8ley]

I was told that superliner coach seats swival, as a pair, 180 degrees. That the pivot point is between the window and isle seats. For whatever reason a coach might be added to the train with the seats faceing backwards. They must then press a lever and rotate each seat pair to face forward. That is why the stairwell might be on the right side in one coach and on the left in the coach ahead. I don't remember how it goes, but that is why the Electric AC plug might be blocked by the vertical seat portion of the seat ahead of you and if rotated that AC plug would be next to that seats passengers left knee(out in the open). Seat 19 may have the plug or seat 15 may have it. Confused? I am. Jim55

Swiveling the seats are how they 'turn' the cars (rather than physically turning the car around) to change the cars orientation from one direction to the other. Only locomotives (on a turntable) are actually turned for a particular run. Coaches have their seats swiveled, while sleepers, lounges, diners, etc. aren't really dependent on front-rear orientation.

Actually it depends on just where the train is terminated as to what method of "turning" the train is used. For example the Auto Train is turned using the seat method. But many other trains are turned by wying the train, rather than using the more man power intensive method of turning the seats. For example the Capitol Limited is almost always turned via the wye as it arrives into Chicago. This way it's already setup to run out as the SW Chief later that afternoon. All the station crews have to do now is clean, water, and reprovision the train.

And all long distance trains arriving into NY are turned using the loop track at Sunnyside yard.

Trains arriving in New Orleans are wyed as well. I wish they could do it after they let the passengers off though, a little annoying to arrive on a late train it pull half-way in the station and then start backing up to turn in the wye.

Actually the trains go around the wye north of the diesel shop which is about 1/3 mile from the station. At no time are you anywhere near the station as you have to back up past the wash rack and ready yard to get to the station.

 

[PSPete]

Great forum, and wonderful thread! I'm an occassional rider, but and enthusiatic support of Amtrak. Just did a R/T on the CNO, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'd appreciate comments from others on tipping guidelines when riding Amtrak. There are some great attendants, and it would be nice to know that I am adequately expressing my appreciation.

I did a search for "tips" and "tipping", but didn't have any luck. Many thanks!

 

[GG-1]

I did a search for "tips" and "tipping", but didn't have any luck. Many thanks!

Aloha

Mahalo for the compliments about the forums. Surprised nothing about tiping showed up in the search, as this topic comes up a lot.

For your comfort tipping an Amtrak employee is similar to other tipping, in similar places. Sleeping car attendant = Hotel maid, Diner staff = Restaurant staff, etc. Only people on a train not tipped, that you see is Conductor.

 

[PSPete]

I did a search for "tips" and "tipping", but didn't have any luck. Many thanks!

Surprised nothing about tiping showed up in the search, as this topic comes up a lot.

GG-1:

Many thanks. Once I unchecked the "Search this forum only" box, there was all kinds of good information that showed up. Many thanks!

 

[RidesOften]

I'm completely new to Amtrak, but as I've been reading this forum for the past few months, I've been writing down some of the good hints I've come across. Here are a few:
Take a small tote bag (a.k.a. a "survival kit") that can fit under the lower bunk in a roomette (a 9"x24"x26" space), or on the steps to the upper bunk. Include:

1. a small flashlight

2. 3or4 large pins like the diaper pins(this is to keep the curtains closed at night)

3. some small snack packs

4. a very small sewing kit and

5. a few bandaides.

6. Instead of pjs I take lightweight knit pants and a t shirt to sleep in. Then if you get up during the night to use the bathroom you are for all purposes dressed.

7. I always carry a small bottle of water as there have been times in the past when they run out.

8. Take along 12" or so of duct tape, wrapped around a ballpoint pen. Use the tape to silence any squeaky panels or fixtures inside your roomette.

9. GPS scanners (so you can find out exactly where you are) and scanners (so you can listen to the train crew) can keep you entertained and informed. I've found NASCAR-type scanners pretty cheap on eBay- just remember not to TALK into them.

10. Roomettes 3-10 on most sleepers are usually the best in terms of having the least noise from nearby plumbing or rail noise.

Thanks to all the OPs whose hints I stole!

Oh GOOs good list will pass along