Amtrak California - even more questions

[Philzy]

Well, I debated placing this in the other Amtrak California thread but I’ll prob have too many questions and will end up hijacking the thread. So here goes….

I just moved out to the West Coast in Sacramento for the moment actually (and loving it here btw). I was kinda puzzled when I came out here last year though with the whole set up and routing when I looked at the schedule/route maps :unsure:

Firstly, I booked a ticket from Sacramento to San Fran (last year), obviously I had to take the bus from Emeryville but it wasn’t bad at all and the drive across that big a$$ bridge was a treat. I was shocked later though when I saw all these signs for Amtrak through out San Fran, these are bus pick ups? okay cool. Later, during my two weeks in the bay area last year I took Cal Train a bunch of times. I was curious about a few things. Apparently after doing some digging, Caltrain was operated by CalTrans till about 1992. So, being that Amtrak California is operated in part with CalTrans would there be any way to operate an Amtrak train to San Fran? Like some type of partnership they could work out? Has this been discussed in the past? Was just thinking that since there is no direct train service from San Fran to Los Angeles and San Diego it just doesn’t seem to fit what would make sense. Ideas here? Were there plans and no money?

Secondly, Amtrak California has some great service in a number of different corridors. Why are none of them apparently properly connected? It would make sense to me that there would be more than a few trains a day leaving from the state capitol (Sacramento) traversing the entire state. In addition some of these different corridor services don’t directly connect with each other? Or maybe I’m reading the schedules and maps wrong? :blink:

You have the Capitol Corridor (CC) from Auburn to San Jose, you have the San Joaquins (SJ) from Oakland to Bakersfield and then the Pacific Surfliner (PS) from San Luis Obispo to San Diego. Yet if you want to go the entire length of the state your choice is the once daily Coast Starlight (CS) which stops in Los Angeles and then it back to the PS.

The state of California has done such an amazing job getting these trains up and running but I would think if they were better connected that ridership would soar. I know that everyone is hyped about the Cali HSR but that’s easily 10-15 years away. Is there any plan to add a central state length train that connects all these awesome train routes?

Lastly, I’m learning more and more about the area and it seems like a lot of people go out to the mountains on their days off or take a week off or vacation there. There seems to be one or two trains a day that continue East of Sac but not very far. I was wondering why the don’t offer weekend(ish) service or even a daily train out to Truckee (Tahoe). This seems like a no brainer especially during winter months for snow sports seasons. B)

Oh wait one more! Santa Cruz, it’s actually where my family is from. Was there ever passenger rail service here? Are there plans for like weekend CalTrain service or even a Amtrak California train? Seems like such a groovy little beach town would be nice to take the train out of the city and head down for the weekend there. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places but couldn’t dig up anything on it; all there could be found was mention of the “through way motor coach service.”

Once again, I’m becoming long winded so I’ll end it here. Any information about these routes would be awesome!

Thanks

Philzy

 

[p&sr]

So, being that Amtrak California is operated in part with CalTrans would there be any way to operate an Amtrak train to San Fran?

The CalTrain (San Jose to San Francisco) is operated by Amtrak under contract.

Secondly, Amtrak California has some great service in a number of different corridors. Why are none of them apparently properly connected?

Two of them connect, at Sacramento, Martinez, Richmond, Emeryville, and Oakland.

By "properly connected", this probably excludes the Busses. But remember there are very popular connections by Amtrak Bus from Bakersfield throughout Southern California, and from the Bay Area to Santa Barbara. See pp. 96-99 of the Amtrak Nationwide Timetable. The following pages give Amtrak Bus schedules throughout the State.

Lastly, I’m learning more and more about the area and it seems like a lot of people go out to the mountains on their days off or take a week off or vacation there.

There are Amtrak Busses along Hwy 80 as far as Reno/Sparks, also along Hwy50 to South Lake Tahoe. And you can get to Yosemite by Amtrak Bus from Merced. See the map of all Amtrak Busses in California on page 97 of the Amtrak Timetable.

Oh wait one more! Santa Cruz, it’s actually where my family is from. Was there ever passenger rail service here?

Oh, yes. In a sense, there still is... a Tourist Train from the Boardwalk Beach Area up into the Mountains where you can see Redwood Trees, and transfer there to another Tourist Train which is Narrow Gauge and Steam. Both runs are very popular, and you can get combined tickets (in Summer) which include a Barbeque and some Western-style entertainment at their base camp.

Welcome to California! Enjoy the Trains, and the Rail Museum!

 

[tp49]

First my condolences on being marooned in Sacramento.

The corridors are actually connected. There are two daily trains from Sacramento to Bakersfield on the San Joaquin route. Otherwise there is a bus connection from Sacramento to Stockton to connect to the other San Joaquin trains. There is an Amtrak bus connection from Bakersfield to Los Angeles connecting into the Surfliner route.

There is only one Capitol Corridor run a day that goes beyond Sacramento to Auburn in the foothills. The Auburn service is primarily commuter for people who commute from Auburn to Sacramento. Other than that to get to Tahoe/Truckee you would have to take the California Zephyr (mainline Amtrak) to get there and those only run once a day.

There are probably others who can speak on the Bay Area things.

 

[George Harris]

the reason that there are no through trains between points in the Valley and Los Angeles is geographical. In times long past, there were a couple of through trains, but the running time between Bakersfield and Los Angeles was about twice that of the current bus service. Pre Amtrak, the Santa Fe ra a Bay Area to Los Angeles service with buses from Bakersfield much like the current Amtrak service. They did it for the very practical reason that they had no direct rail line, slow or otherwise. Santa Fe ran freigth through, but it had to go to Barstow, which was much slower than the already slow Southern Pacific through line via Tehachapi and Palmdale.

The California high speed line is suppose to make it possible to finally do Valley points ot LA on one train.

California has a vey long wish list of rail projects that will further improve what they have, but the funding is minimal. There has been quite a bit done. Part of the good running is due to the BNSF dispatching the trains down the valley with awesome efficiency. You could forget that the line is mostly single track and carries fairly heavy freight traffic in addition to 6 passenger trains in each direction from the way they run.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In the past, before Amtrak, there were once through trains which went from San Francisco, proper,the city itself, to Los Angeles. This was one part of the once very big Southern Pacific Railroad. At one time it had a huge commuter train business between SF and San Jose. I guess it is called Caltrans today.. They got double deck commuter cars back when that was a novelty and I had the pleasure to ride one to San Jose and back once..

Anyway the through long distance trains from SF to LA went this way via San Jose.The top notch train was the Lark, at one time all pullman. It had the famous Lark Club, a three times length monster of a dining area, kitchen and lounge area rolled into one three car articulated unit. The Lark was pretty close to being a 20th Century Limited, Broadway Limited kind of train.There was a neat day time streamliner called the Coast Dayliight. There was an Oakland Lark which went Oakland to San Jose where it was joined with the main train from SF proper.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Amtrak was unique in finally putting together a straight through train from Seattle to Portland to Emervyille (SF ), LA and San Diego. Yes--------the Coast Starlight used to run from Seattle to San Diego as one train, just as the Sunset Limited used to run from Miami to LA.

These were two of Amtrak's finest innovations. Too bad they did not last.Chronic lateless forced both the Sunset LImited cutback to Orlando and the Coast Starlight cut back to LA.

Using a 1957 Official Guide this is how I found it to be at one time:

1.Seattle to Portland, several trains Great Northern and other operators

2.Portland to Oakland Pier (ferry to SF proper),train names like Shasta Daylight and Cascade

2.SF direct to LA,Coast Daylight, Lark, Oakland Lark from Oakland, others (and more back through the years--several Daylights)

4.LA to San Diego Santa Fe trains, called San Diegans, Many schedules as it is today

The name Starlight had been used somewhere during the years, thus how Amtrak came up with the name Coast Starlight, as a name combining past names.

Some will recall the Southern Pacific as one of those roads which gave up on the passenger more quickly than a lot of others, and I agree. The infamous automat cars on the Sunset have been mentioned recenty. All very true, but it did have lot of neat operations at one time, more than I have mentioned here.

But then Amtrak did more thn the SP itself did even in its better days by extending the two above trainss routes.

Oh yes, it is true people were put on a ferry at one time to get across the bay to SF proper. I guess early 50's they changed to a bus. And the final westernm stop has varied through the years to get across the Bay, it has been rRchmond (via the Santa Fe), Oakdand by others and now Emeryville.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.

I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

 

[sechs]

The California high speed rail project should remedy some of the perceived and actual deficiencies in the state's rail system.

Right now, there's only one way from Bakersfield to Los Angeles through the mountains. That's the Tehachapi Loop, which is slow and terribly backed-up with freight. The high speed rail project will add a tunnel through the mountains which will be more direct and dedicated to passenger rail.

The coast line which the Starlight uses is predominantly single track, and also carries a lot of freight. The high speed rail project will build dedicated tracks through the Central Valley, going straight up the Peninsula, directly connecting Los Angeles with San Francisco.

 

[tp49]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.
I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund the resurrection of said train?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.
I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund the resurrection of said train?

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

 

[sechs]

It's the first I've heard of it. Perhaps your friends in Trenton will fund it; there's no money here....

 

[Philzy]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.
I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund the resurrection of said train?

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

Interesting !

While there is always the question of funding lets say we had it...I think a morning, early afternoon and late evening departure in each direction would suit it perfectly. I was comparing the run from Oakland to LA andit looks like trip time is running about 12 hours. So each would work out perfectly.

I have to admit I like the idea of an overnight train with sleepers. Now would Amtrak California just pull these from Amtrak mainline service to use or would Amtrak California have these built for them, or how does one see that one working out should they choose to do so? B)

Philzy

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.
I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund the resurrection of said train?

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

Interesting !

While there is always the question of funding lets say we had it...I think a morning, early afternoon and late evening departure in each direction would suit it perfectly. I was comparing the run from Oakland to LA andit looks like trip time is running about 12 hours. So each would work out perfectly.

I have to admit I like the idea of an overnight train with sleepers. Now would Amtrak California just pull these from Amtrak mainline service to use or would Amtrak California have these built for them, or how does one see that one working out should they choose to do so? B)

Philzy

I think that Oakland to LA trip you're looking at is the Coast Starlight. If you run down the central valley it's about 8 1/2 hrs, and 2hr20min of that is a bus. The coast route would get faster if you built a new line with less curves, but the central valley route would be cheaper and almost as fast.

 

[Philzy]

Amtrak ran, at California's behest, an overnight train from Sacramento to Los Angeles called the Spirit of California. It ran for less than a year before a change in government had it summarily executed.
I have heard strong rumors that this is one Spirit that will rise again.

Where exactly is the money going to come from to fund the resurrection of said train?

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

Interesting !

While there is always the question of funding lets say we had it...I think a morning, early afternoon and late evening departure in each direction would suit it perfectly. I was comparing the run from Oakland to LA andit looks like trip time is running about 12 hours. So each would work out perfectly.

I have to admit I like the idea of an overnight train with sleepers. Now would Amtrak California just pull these from Amtrak mainline service to use or would Amtrak California have these built for them, or how does one see that one working out should they choose to do so? B)

Philzy

I think that Oakland to LA trip you're looking at is the Coast Starlight. If you run down the central valley it's about 8 1/2 hrs, and 2hr20min of that is a bus. The coast route would get faster if you built a new line with less curves, but the central valley route would be cheaper and almost as fast.

Ahhh, yes you are right I was looking at the CS routing... I actually couldn't find a routing of the San Joaquins extended down to LA. 8.5 hours to 12 is a pretty big improvement. So, i'm sure that would most likely be the route of choice. But knowing Californians they'll prob decide that it's in the best interest to have it on the coast for the pretty views and spend 5 years and a dubious about of extra money to make the tracks straighter... who's to say!

Thanks for point that out though. I knew there was a way to route straight down through the valley but wasn't sure what the time difference between the two would be.

 

[jackal]

I think that Oakland to LA trip you're looking at is the Coast Starlight. If you run down the central valley it's about 8 1/2 hrs, and 2hr20min of that is a bus. The coast route would get faster if you built a new line with less curves, but the central valley route would be cheaper and almost as fast.

Ahhh, yes you are right I was looking at the CS routing... I actually couldn't find a routing of the San Joaquins extended down to LA. 8.5 hours to 12 is a pretty big improvement. So, i'm sure that would most likely be the route of choice. But knowing Californians they'll prob decide that it's in the best interest to have it on the coast for the pretty views and spend 5 years and a dubious about of extra money to make the tracks straighter... who's to say!

Thanks for point that out though. I knew there was a way to route straight down through the valley but wasn't sure what the time difference between the two would be.

It's about 6 hours to Bakersfield followed by another 2:20 on the bus. The train doesn't go all the way to L.A. via the Central Valley because the only tracks from Bakersfield to L.A. are single track with passing sidings, congested with a good bit of freight traffic, go slowly over a mountain pass, and head a good bit out of the way (east) before turning south and west.

It should be noted, though, that on the rare occasions that the Coast Starlight is rerouted over this route (Tehachapi Pass), it usually arrives into its destination early, so it's still a faster/more direct route than running the Coast Line.

 

[AlanB]

It should be noted, though, that on the rare occasions that the Coast Starlight is rerouted over this route (Tehachapi Pass), it usually arrives into its destination early, so it's still a faster/more direct route than running the Coast Line.

Well it's also not making any stops, other than perhaps a crew change, so that also helps to speed the run up.

 

[jackal]

It should be noted, though, that on the rare occasions that the Coast Starlight is rerouted over this route (Tehachapi Pass), it usually arrives into its destination early, so it's still a faster/more direct route than running the Coast Line.

Well it's also not making any stops, other than perhaps a crew change, so that also helps to speed the run up.

According to this itinerary, the running time between LAX and SAC is normally 13 hours, 35 minutes (10:15am-11:50pm). The running time via Tehachapi is 10 hours, 45 minutes (10:15am-9:00pm), a savings of 2 hours, 50 minutes. Even with 10-15 minute stops in SBA, SLO, SJC, OKJ, and EMY (50-75 minutes) plus other stops (7 stops at 2-4 minutes apiece, delaying a total of 20-30 minutes factoring in stopping and acceleration times), running over Tehachapi's still an hour to an hour and a half faster (and that's including, IIRC, a significant stop in BFD).

Still, 11 hours by train vs. 8.5 hours by bus--I think most people who need or want to get between the Bay Area or Sacramento and SoCal without flying (until HSR becomes a reality) would probably pick the bus option even though it's not quite as comfortable.

 

[George Harris]

According to this itinerary, the running time between LAX and SAC is normally 13 hours, 35 minutes (10:15am-11:50pm). The running time via Tehachapi is 10 hours, 45 minutes (10:15am-9:00pm), a savings of 2 hours, 50 minutes. Even with 10-15 minute stops in SBA, SLO, SJC, OKJ, and EMY (50-75 minutes) plus other stops (7 stops at 2-4 minutes apiece, delaying a total of 20-30 minutes factoring in stopping and acceleration times), running over Tehachapi's still an hour to an hour and a half faster (and that's including, IIRC, a significant stop in BFD).

But, you are not going to the San Francisco Bay area. No San Jose, No Oakland, No Emeryville (with San Francisco), No Martinez. You bypass all these points when you go up the valley. If you pick up these points, which you could with the exception of San Jose, you would be slower than coming up the coast.

 

[jackal]

According to this itinerary, the running time between LAX and SAC is normally 13 hours, 35 minutes (10:15am-11:50pm). The running time via Tehachapi is 10 hours, 45 minutes (10:15am-9:00pm), a savings of 2 hours, 50 minutes. Even with 10-15 minute stops in SBA, SLO, SJC, OKJ, and EMY (50-75 minutes) plus other stops (7 stops at 2-4 minutes apiece, delaying a total of 20-30 minutes factoring in stopping and acceleration times), running over Tehachapi's still an hour to an hour and a half faster (and that's including, IIRC, a significant stop in BFD).

But, you are not going to the San Francisco Bay area. No San Jose, No Oakland, No Emeryville (with San Francisco), No Martinez. You bypass all these points when you go up the valley. If you pick up these points, which you could with the exception of San Jose, you would be slower than coming up the coast.

I'm slightly confused as to what you're saying.

If you're proposing the time for a route from SJC to LAX via the Central Valley and routing first north to MTZ and then east and then south down the Valley (i.e. the route of the SJC-BFD San Joaquins), then I still think skipping the Coast Line would be faster. The 10-15-minute stops at OKJ and EMY would add--at most with deceleration/acceleration delays--30 to 45 minutes. Add in a few more intermediate stops (say, 4 more--Stockton, Merced, Modesto, and Fresno), with a total delay of 10-15 minutes, and at worst you're tying the time up the Coast Line ( and at best you're still exceeding it by 50 minutes.

If you propose coming up Altamont Pass (skipping SJC but keeping OKJ and north)--assuming the right connecting tracks are built, since you can't currently go from the northbound tracks in the Valley to the Altamont tracks without running the engines around the train and basically pulling the train backwards--you might have a point. At one point on a Yahoo mailing list, I did a bunch of calculations using employee timetable speed and mileage figures to compare the Coast Line and Central Valley routings. Not sure it will work if you're not a member of the Yahoo group, but try this link for that discussion:

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/COAS...ar=1&tidx=1

Glancing through the thread, I did come across this paragraph that I vaguely remember writing:

A very rough comparison in travel time can be made using Amtrak's Coast Starlight schedule and a trip report from the Starlight's detour over Tehachapi Pass a couple of years ago. In the nonexistent case that they're running on time, Amtrak should be able to get from LAUPT to SAC in 13 hours, 44 minutes. The Tehachapi Pass-detoured Starlight made it from SAC to LAUPT in 9 hours, 40 minutes via Tehachapi pass and the Soledad Canyon (the Metrolink Antelope Valley Line's route).

If we're looking at LAX-SJC (South Bay), then here are the times (best case) I calculated, given mileage and average speed (believe me--those calculations were painstakingly tedious and I would bet [a small amount of money] on their accuracy!):

COAST: 9 hours, 12 minutesTEHACHAPI/TRACY: 10 hours, 2 minutes

TEHACHAPI/ALTAMONT: 8 hours, 14 minutes

Tehachapi/Altamont assumes the connecting track from the Central Valley northbound route to Altamont Pass were installed. Tehachapi/Tracy is the next best route if Altamont Pass is unusable.

 

[Chatter163]

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

Something that is a "pipe-dream" cannot, by definition, also be something that is being "seriously considered" or, for that matter, vice-versa. It must be one or the other, at least at any given time. Personally, I suspect the former.

 

[montereyan]

I've heard that CA is interested in running it, and that there are plans for Surfliner/CA car sleepers. Its a pipe-dream at the moment, but from what I heard, they are seriously considering it.

What you're describing is the plan to resurrect the Coast Daylight, which would be an Amtrak California train connecting San Francisco to LA via the Coast route. The current plan is to use Surfliner equipment for the run. It would not be an overnight train - it would depart SF around 7 AM and arrive in LA around 7 PM, according to a draft schedule put out by the Coast Rail Coordinating Council.

I'm a bit uncertain about that schedule, since it would be running maybe two hours ahead of the Coast Starlight (which departs SJC at 9:40 AM and is scheduled to arrive at LAX at 9 PM but often is early. There has been some discussion about departing SF earlier, maybe around 5:30 or 6.

Personally I think an overnight train from SF to LA is a genius idea, but to my knowledge there are no firm plans to do it at this time. The Coast Daylight project on the other hand is quite far along, with some funding identified and some preliminary operating agreements with Union Pacific already having been signed. Some track upgrades, particularly between Gilroy and Paso Robles, will be needed to make this work.

 

[Philzy]

Very Interesting stuff!

I went on a hunt for the Coast Daylight checking out the Wiki article. That lead me here and then aslo lead me here...Now mind you one of those articles was written Oct 2006 so we can't count on too much from that one...

In this article it states:

Due to track conditions, initial travel time for the length of the run will be about 12 hours. (In the 1950s SP was able to run it in 10 hours, which shows you how much things have deteriorated since then.)"

Which makes me wonder 1) what was the train speed then - was it not limited by the safety regulations we had today? or was the track jsut really well maintained? 2) what are the speed restrictions today? I guess a better question whats the normal speed between urban areas where the trains are most likely required to slow down?

As for the schedule of the possible future Coast Daylight which is posted here I was wondering if the Coast Starlight was pushed back an hour on departure time would help or if it would even be needed; since its notorousily late.

Secondly, the same article states,

"However, planned track and equipment upgrades should eventually reduce that time to about 8 hours."

So, I could ponder if the schedule is improved to a shorter run time say of 8-10 hours then would it be possible to also run these same sets overnight? On a sort of Coast Midnight run as we were talking about earlier in the thread?

oh and lastly... in the same article the following sentence of the above mentioned one was

"Whether that will happen in our lifetime is an unknown. A lot depends on the political will to fund rail."

So, what would these upgrades mean and require to take place? has any headway on them been made?

Philzy

 

[sechs]

I'm slightly confused as to what you're saying.
If you're proposing the time for a route from SJC to LAX via the Central Valley and routing first north to MTZ and then east and then south down the Valley (i.e. the route of the SJC-BFD San Joaquins)

For the record, the San Joaquins doesn't run to San Jose. It runs OKJ/SAC to BFD.

If you propose coming up Altamont Pass (skipping SJC but keeping OKJ and north)

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The time to get to Stockton from Oakland via Martinez is practically the same as via the Altamont Pass. And, because of the location of the Stockton stations, it would require back-tracking.

 

[sechs]

Personally I think an overnight train from SF to LA is a genius idea, but to my knowledge there are no firm plans to do it at this time.

Should the Central Coast Daylight become reality, it might make sense to shift the Coast Starlight by twelve hours, making it overnight down the coast.

Folks up in Oregon and Washington might have something to say about that, however....

 

[warbonnet]

Good luck getting scheduled passenger service over Tehachapi pass. There is no way the freight railroads will allow this between Bakersfied and Mojave. It has about the same chance as LA's Metrolink running up Cajon Pass to Victorville from San Berdo, another thought that has surfaced but instantly killed due to all the freight being moved on those lines.

Wb

 

[George Harris]

In this article it states:

Due to track conditions, initial travel time for the length of the run will be about 12 hours. (In the 1950s SP was able to run it in 10 hours, which shows you how much things have deteriorated since then.)"

Which makes me wonder 1) what was the train speed then - was it not limited by the safety regulations we had today? or was the track jsut really well maintained? 2) what are the speed restrictions today? I guess a better question whats the normal speed between urban areas where the trains are most likely required to slow down?

Two main things have slowed down the train:

1. When the SP was running it in 10 hours, the train had absolute priority over everything, so there was very little delay beyond minimum practical running time in practice and virtually zero slack in the schedule.

2. Through the 1960's superelevaiton was reduced in many curves due to the advent of piggyback which had/has a high center of gravity and is also relatively light. There were several occasions where train forces pulled these cars off the rails toward the inside of the curve. Many companies made it a policy to reduce all curve superelevations above 4 inches to that amount or less. Before that, the maximum was 6 inches on most railroads. Also, much 79 mph territory was reduced to 70 mph. One more thing: With the emphasis on timliness, even the 79 mph would be ignored where conditions permitted with a wink from all in management. The Daylight steam engines and thier diesel sucessors were quite capable of running 90 mph or faster.