Amtrak Cascades Service discussion

[trimetbusfan]

Train 11, as a long-distance train, is also apparently going to be permanently short of capacity. So I think the new 8:55 a.m. Seattle departure will help with that problem. I think also that business travel, the original reason for the extra-early departure back in December 2017, has slipped some post-pandemic.

I'm wondering how trimetbusfan managed to get that southbound schedule posted in perfect order. It looks like it's from Wanderu, but I had to print the Wanderu northbound schedule and do an old-fashioned cut-and-paste with paper and scotch tape to do what he did on the computer with he southbound schedule.

I just took a screenshot of the screen that shows up when one searches to buy a PDX-SEA train ticket on Amtrak’s website.

 

[Maglev]

YOUTH RIDE FREE IN WASHINGTON STATE
Passengers aged 18 and under now ride free on Amtrak Cascades trains in Washington. We’re hoping to inspire an entire generation to consider trains as a great choice when traveling along the I-5 corridor. Learn more at:
http://wsdot.wa.gov/.../youth-enjoy-free-fares-amtrak...

 

[ferroaficionada]

I came across this today. Washington State has been working on increasing access to public transportation for youth and apparently now youth can ride Amtrak Cascades in WA free also. Here is a link to a news article about this: https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/youth-ride-free-amtrak-cascades/W3MTFYASLBCFDGHUC3K5VPYBEU/

Edited to say I checked this thread to make sure someone else had not already posted about it, and there was nothing...but when I posted my message, obviously the screen refreshed and Maglev's message popped up. Pardon my error! Moderator, I won't be mad if you delete this instead of letting it post

 

[fairviewroad]

It's a nice idea but not entirely ready for prime time, since it only covers WA-only itineraries. The WSDOT folks on social media have been fielding tons of questions from people complaining that they can't use it to travel between SEA-PDX or SEA-VAC, which are obviously two very popular segments on the Cascades.

Their solution? Book separate tickets for the same train. In other words, if your 17-year-old wants to travel from Seattle to Portland (on their own or with their family), they'd have to book a ticket from Seattle to VanWa, and then a separate ticket from VanWa to Portland. Because Amtrak's reservations system isn't sophisticated enough, this has to be done with two completely separate transactions, as opposed to a multi-city ticket.

Understandably, segments involving Canada are a different beast. But it seems as though with a bit more upfront effort, they could have figured out how to cover the entire SEA-PDX segment under this promotion. Instead, they are asking people to navigate Amtrak's complicated user interface and also blaming the state of Oregon for not stepping up. Not a great look, if you ask me.

 

[trimetbusfan]

It's a nice idea but not entirely ready for prime time, since it only covers WA-only itineraries. The WSDOT folks on social media have been fielding tons of questions from people complaining that they can't use it to travel between SEA-PDX or SEA-VAC, which are obviously two very popular segments on the Cascades.

Their solution? Book separate tickets for the same train. In other words, if your 17-year-old wants to travel from Seattle to Portland (on their own or with their family), they'd have to book a ticket from Seattle to VanWa, and then a separate ticket from VanWa to Portland. Because Amtrak's reservations system isn't sophisticated enough, this has to be done with two completely separate transactions, as opposed to a multi-city ticket.

Understandably, segments involving Canada are a different beast. But it seems as though with a bit more upfront effort, they could have figured out how to cover the entire SEA-PDX segment under this promotion. Instead, they are asking people to navigate Amtrak's complicated user interface and also blaming the state of Oregon for not stepping up. Not a great look, if you ask me.

Agreed. Seems weird multi city is not allowed/possible.

 

[Willbridge]

And the buses to Portland aren't handy to the Vancouver train station either. Perhaps bringing a bicycle...

One interesting thing to watch is how it will affect Trains 11/14. I expect that some family might find it convenient to use a paid trip one way and a free trip the other. Or will it reduce ridership on the paid trains?

Radical fare experiments are usually educational, although sometimes later it's hard to get results data. I once ran a small, single-route "night & Sunday" promotion in Edmonton that was an almost complete failure, except that the Edmonton Journal ran a really positive editorial about it!

The "no multi-city" issue has some similarity to my Edmonton experiment. Almost all of the "night & Sunday" customers on the free line were transfers with lines at the regular fare, so offering free rides was not very attractive. In the Washington case, will it seem so complicated that people will not take advantage of it? Or will hordes of bicyclists be seen heading for the Interstate Bridge?

 

[fairviewroad]

I don't think that VanWa's proximity to local bus routes or the ease of navigating the Interstate Bridge via bicycle will really come into play here. IF someone can figure out the ticket-purchasing angle of it, getting a free ticket from Seattle to VanWa and then a paid ticket on the same train from VanWa to PDX is still significantly cheaper than a paid ticket for the entire SEA-PDX segment.

I don't think families are going to tell their teenager to disembark in VanWa to find their own way to Portland when the alternative is staying on the train and finishing the trip for an extra $6 or so. I think the real problem is the frustration people will have when attempting to get a "free ticket" and finding it doesn't apply to their itinerary and/or trying to navigate Amtrak's website to make the double-ticket purchase.

 

[Willbridge]

Here are different looks at the free youth fare.

https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/05/30/free-youth-fares-amtrak-cascades/

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/youth-ride-free-amtrak-cascades/W3MTFYASLBCFDGHUC3K5VPYBEU/

https://amtrakoregon.com/guide/children

So far, media have been focusing on the free youth fares on transit systems., with less attention to the Cascades and ferries. It may take more time for this to catch on?

 

[trimetbusfan]

Just received an alert about the service change on Monday via email.

 

[fairviewroad]

I think this is a sensible change, but it's odd to place the blame on "businesses now relying on virtual meetings."

The real issue is more likely that leisure travelers didn't want to leave Seattle that early, and business travelers who needed to be in PDX by 9 a.m. couldn't take that train anyhow (Alaska Airlines can get you into PDX for a 9 a.m. meeting, though.)

 

[Willbridge]

I think this is a sensible change, but it's odd to place the blame on "businesses now relying on virtual meetings."

The real issue is more likely that leisure travelers didn't want to leave Seattle that early, and business travelers who needed to be in PDX by 9 a.m. couldn't take that train anyhow (Alaska Airlines can get you into PDX for a 9 a.m. meeting, though.)

On a corridor service a train starting that early is meant more for trips from the intermediate points to the big city. In this case, the big city is in a different state and is smaller than the one that customers can reach on the early morning northbound train.

The DOT's should be given thanks for being willing to experiment.

 

[Maglev]

My wife and I stopped in for lunch at the "Train Wreck Bar and Grill" in Burlington, Washington, yesterday, and saw a 58-minute late, very dirty train 516 pass by. There is a 1-foot gauge steam locomotive outside outside the restaurant, and we also watched a pair of BNSF GP-38's push a few freight cars back and forth on a siding.

 

[zephyr17]

In case anyone is interested, 517-518, the PDX-VAC train pair no longer is running with a Talgo set. I have been checking 518 at Everett every day for the last week and it has been Horizons every day. I had gone up to see it and it had Horizons on what should have been a Talgo day. I checked daily for a week to make sure it wasn't a fluke. It's not, it appears a Talgo set is no longer assigned to 517-518.

The 516-519 SEA-VAC train pair still had its Talgo as of July 8th.

 

[zephyr17]

A Talgo trainset has returned to the 516-519 SEA-VAC train pair for now. I checked 519 last night at EVR.

The two ODOT Talgo VIII sets have been shifting around during the later part of this summer. Shortly after my previous post 516-519 started operating with Horizons again. I am not sure when the Talgo returned, but it's there now. Personally, if I were ODOT, I'd have a screaming fit if my Talgos got assigned to anything but the SEA-EUG 503-508 and 507-502 pairs.

I am not complaining, though. If the Talgo stays, I'll use a coupon to upgrade to BC for my November 3rd trip to VAC. BC in the Horizons is not worth it and much lower capacity than Talgo's BC.

 

[Harmon Shay]

The Talgo assignments seem to change a lot, but I haven't been able to find out why the Talgos aren't running south of Portland anymore. One person told me something about mileage requirements affecting the equipment rotations. I've also been wondering if the Oregon Talgos might stay in the rotation once the eight Siemens sets arrive because, unlike Washington, Oregon is happy with its Talgo arrangement and the trains won't be aged out at that time. If the Oregon Talgos stay, that could help with protection and even allow for service expansion, admittedly with a little less overall capacity on the Talgos. There is that third Seattle-Vancouver BC round trip that I think is still possible, though last I heard BNSF was getting butterflies about it.

 

[zephyr17]

There is that third Seattle-Vancouver BC round trip that I think is still possible, though last I heard BNSF was getting butterflies about it.

Washington DOT appears to have taken the position that absent at least some financial support from BC there will be no additional Vancouver frequencies. They also are downplaying any cross-state proposals. Everything I've seen lately points to an almost exclusive focus on Seattle-Portland frequencies.

 

[Harmon Shay]

The Washington DOT is reluctant to spend what I'm told could be up to a hundred-million-dollars to get the ex-NP back up to passenger train standards between Auburn and Pasco, especially since the running time between Seattle and Yakima would be around four hours with you can drive it in about 2:15 at the speed limit with no interruptions. Of course I'm on record as saying that the Empire Builder needs to be rerouted back to the Yakima line and should never have been rerouted in 1981. I know that's not consistent with railfan opinion, but the south line was where the population, the business and the political support for Amtrak were.

 

[west point]

I know that's not consistent with railfan opinion, but the south line was where the population, the business and the political support for Amtrak were.

Interesting point. What would be the south route running time? If longer than Cascades route would put a crimp in making the Seattle turn on time?

 

[zephyr17]

The Washington DOT is reluctant to spend what I'm told could be up to a hundred-million-dollars to get the ex-NP back up to passenger train standards between Auburn and Pasco, especially since the running time between Seattle and Yakima would be around four hours with you can drive it in about 2:15 at the speed limit with no interruptions. Of course I'm on record as saying that the Empire Builder needs to be rerouted back to the Yakima line and should never have been rerouted in 1981. I know that's not consistent with railfan opinion, but the south line was where the population, the business and the political support for Amtrak were.

A couple of bones to pick with your assertions there:
1. The Stampede Sub is "up to passenger train standards". It's just dark with a three CTC islands for sidings at Bristol, Easton, and Kanaskat. It is FRA Class 3 and is perfectly fine for passenger trains up to 59 mph.
2. The 59 mph FRA Class 3 upper limit really means nothing here. It'll never reach 59, let alone 79 on the Stampede Sub even if you put lineside signals back in and made it Class 4. The speed restrictions are lower than that over the entire Stampede Sub. Most of the subdivision has speed restrictions between 20 and 40 mph, with a small stretch of 45. That is due to grades and curves, not rail condition. You could maybe squeeze a couple mph out for passenger service, but nothing significant and that is just adjusting speed restrictions for lighter, shorter passenger trains with better braking response, adding a faster "P" speed to the "F" speed. It is never going to be 79 mph or even 59 mph on the current alignment. You'd have to create a mostly entirely new line to get it to 79 mph. If your vision of "passenger train standards" requires an entirely new alignment, it's time to just give in to the fantasy and start thinking HSR. You could make 59 on a lot of the Yakima Valley Sub, though, much of is 49, the Class 3 limit for freight.
3. It was never a particularly fast line, and that is due to alignment and grades. The North Coast Limited was carded at 4:20 between Seattle and Yakima according to my January 1961 Official Guide, leaving Seattle at 1:30 pm and arriving Yakima at 5:50 pm. If that is the best NP could do with their crack varnish over their mainline, I do not think Washington DOT could improve that significantly without spending into the billions (i.e. a new railroad). You probably could have beaten the NCL's time on US 10 and US 97 in 1961, too (though not by as much as on I 90 and I 82).

The real kicker and expense isn't bringing the line up to traditional "passenger standards" (which it already is). It is PTC. BNSF has not installed PTC and does not plan to. I just checked that on the BNSF website. It is one of the few secondary mains that BNSF hasn't put PTIC on. Most of the traffic is eastbound grain empties. Any hazmat they'll run over Stevens or along the Columbia, so they do not need PTC for themselves there. Passenger service there isn't going to get by without PTC, like Raton/Glorietta (0 freight trains) or the former D&RGW west of Grand Junction (1 BNSF trackage rights train a day each way). There's probably too much freight traffic even if at current low levels. And even if freight traffic was low enough (which I think is only one train) if you wanted to add more than a single daily Amtrak train, that'd require PTC regardless of whatever BNSF wants to do. Since BNSF doesn't need PTC, the entire cost of PTC installation would fall on Washington DOT/Amtrak.

So it is PTC that's probably the is probably the stake in the heart of the possibility of passenger service over Stampede, be Cascades corridor service or a Builder reroute. PTC installation indeed could be over 100 million, if not multiples of that.

 

[Harmon Shay]

I agree with you about PTC. I realized after hitting the "send" button on my post that I hadn't mentioned that the big cost was PTC. And it's true that parts of the line can't be brought up to Class 4 because of its characteristics. NP's top speed on it for passenger between Seattle and Yakima was actually 75, and then only in a few spots. There were some faster travel times, though, by the mid and late 60's. The eastbound North Coast Limited took 4:10 between Seattle and Yakima and the westbound 4:05, including the ten minutes of padding between East Auburn and Seattle. After its 1968 speedup, the eastbound Mainstreeter was carded in one hour and four minutes between Seattle and Yakima even with an added positive stop at Cle Elum and several flag stops before that, and some unreasonable city-imposed speed restrictions between Seattle and East Auburn that have since been forcibly removed by Washington State, largely in the name of freight mobility.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Interesting point. What would be the south route running time? If longer than Cascades route would put a crimp in making the Seattle turn on time?

The NP used to go between Seattle and Spokane in nine hours with the North Coast Limited, including a roughly 25 minute stop in Pasco to switch the Portland through cars in and out. That would definitely make Amtrak's fast equipment turn in Seattle impossible, but it's possible now only if the westbound Empire Builder is on time or very close, which it frequently isn't. I've argued for some time that railroad reliability is now down to the point that Amtrak even on the faster GN route has no choice but to put a sixth set into the Empire Builder rotation to ensure a reliable turnaround in Seattle, and I hope they'll do that with one of the Capitol Limited Superliner sets that's becoming available next month. There were problems with the fast turn even back in the railroad days, but GN and NP were able to cobble together extra trainsets in Seattle when needed. This was admittedly easier for GN than NP because GN had more lightweight equipment and had at least an hour more turnaround time in Seattle.

 

[zephyr17]

NP's top speed on it for passenger between Seattle and Yakima was actually 75, and then only in a few spots.

Yeah, the line under the NP was all ABS protected and Class 4, so the "fast" parts in the Yakima Valley and around Ellensburg could be 75. BN/BNSF pulled the ABS and put in the CTC islands when they rebuilt Stampede in 1990s after they decided to put it back into service after it had been embargoed (and badly washed out. I drove the maintenance road up to the east portal of the tunnel at Martin then and there were places the rail was just hanging in the air).

 

[Willbridge]

The NP used to go between Seattle and Spokane in nine hours with the North Coast Limited, including a roughly 25 minute stop in Pasco to switch the Portland through cars in and out. That would definitely make Amtrak's fast equipment turn in Seattle impossible, but it's possible now only if the westbound Empire Builder is on time or very close, which it frequently isn't. I've argued for some time that railroad reliability is now down to the point that Amtrak even on the faster GN route has no choice but to put a sixth set into the Empire Builder rotation to ensure a reliable turnaround in Seattle, and I hope they'll do that with one of the Capitol Limited Superliner sets that's becoming available next month. There were problems with the fast turn even back in the railroad days, but GN and NP were able to cobble together extra trainsets in Seattle when needed. This was admittedly easier for GN than NP because GN had more lightweight equipment and had at least an hour more turnaround time in Seattle.

The SP&S had extra equipment in Portland, including heavyweights. As I've mentioned before in some other thread, I've seen Train 2 leaving Portland with heavyweight diner "Willamette" - complete with crystal flower vases - and the rest of the consist turned on the regular cycle. Presumably turning the dining car was the most stressful part of the process.

The scheduled turn in Portland for years was eight hours.

 

[trimetbusfan]

For anyone trying to find a Talgo trainset on Cascades lately, the equipment rotations have changed. I finally figured out a pattern and figured I would share since it is quite a weird rotation.

The easiest way to ride one is on 516/519, which gets one every day. However, one set also rotates onto the following cycle:
Day 1 - 511
Day 2 - 502/507
Day 3 - 504/509
Day 4 - 500
This ultimately means that trains 511/502/507/504/509/500 all get a Talgo, once every 4 days. Getting one on 516/519 is still the best bet, but if you want to get one south of Seattle, these are the trains you should look out for.

*Also - at least for now they also no longer regularly Talgos on trains 503/505/506/517 or 518.

 

[TheMalahat]

Easy question: do the Talgo and / or Horizons have at-seat charging? I *think* it'll be a Talgo round trip, doing 519 & 516 next week. Thanks!