Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[Paulus]

You are making a whole host of assumptions about the architecture used for the latter which IMHO is unwarranted. Given your assumptions yes, there is a problem. But I would at least give the engineers working on such a benefit of doubt as to not being idiots.

I would give Russian or Iranian engineers the benefit of the doubt on that. American engineers, never.

N1 rocket design, Nedelin catastrophe, that recent Proton rocket launch with the guidance unit installed upside down...

 

[dlagrua]

Hugo Teso, a software consultant was able to prove that he can take control of an aircraft navigation system by using an application that he developed for his smartphone. Look him up online as this forum doesn't allow links or videos.

Let us not be so certain that that an Amtrak locomotive control system cannot be hacked. Smart phones, laptops, home networks, auto On Star , banking systems, credit card companies have all been hacked. The IRA and the Pentagon's network have been hacked. What does that say? Two days ago another report came in that the information of up to 4 million federal employees has been stolen. If a hack command had been received that instructed to accelerate the locomotive to over 100 MPH just before the curve, the engineer might not have had time to notice and react. It could have been human error but then again it might not have been. It would seem that the black boxes have the answers. For now only the NTSB knows what info is contained in them.

 

[Ryan]

You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.

Edit: WTF, it is stripping links, at least from the app.

Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?

 

[Hal]

You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.

Edit: WTF, it is stripping links, at least from the app.

A hacker would have to have been on the locomotive.

 

[Ryan]

Exactly. I think someone would have noticed that.

 

[John Bobinyec]

If a hack command had been received that instructed to accelerate the locomotive to over 100 MPH just before the curve, the engineer might not have had time to notice and react.

Of course there would be time if the engineer is awake and paying attention. And definitely the engineer would notice if he was applying the brakes but the train was accelerating. The only way he wouldn't have had time is if the hacker instructed the engine to cut in the solid rocket boosters. Other than that, the maximum acceleration pulling a train isn't that much.

jb

 

[FormerOBS]

When trains start flying, I'll take the word of an aircraft guy on these issues. Till then I'll rely on railroad specialists. Some people have been reading too much Tom Clancy and seeing too many CG movies.

Tom

 

[Bob Dylan]

Since I'm probably the least Hi- Tech savvy member of AU, I'll tale the word of our resident computer/hi-tech members as pertains to this aspect of the Philly tragedy!

 

[AKA]

Since I'm probably the least Hi- Tech savvy member of AU, I'll tale the word of our resident computer/hi-tech members as pertains to this aspect of the Philly tragedy!

I resemble that remark

 

[jis]

Actually Hugo Teso's claims have not quite held up upon detailed scrutiny either. So don't just take everything that appears in video on face value either

 

[dlagrua]

You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.

Edit: WTF, it is stripping links, at least from the app.

Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?

So what you are saying is that there is no sattelite communications link between the Amtrak engine control center and home base. There is a GPS link though. There's your way in. While the scenerio that I suggest might not be possible, I have trouble believing that an expereinced Amtrak engineer, (who ran the NEC route many many times) could be so careless as to accelerate to 106 MPH before a known curve. I am of the opinion that anything can be hacked but only time will tell what really happened..

 

[Ryan]

No, that's not your way in. Put the tinfoil hat away and let the experts work.

 

[DooBdoo]

I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

[PRR 60]

A modern derivation of Occam's Razor: "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." Sadly, the simplest explanation is operator error.

 

[jis]

dlagrua, please at least take the time and make the effort to read and teach yourself how GPS works so that you can avoid posting utterly foolish statements about "the way" .

And where on earth do you get the idea that this forum does not allow links to videos?

And finally do not believe everything you see on a random video without investigating it further. There has been a lengthy thread on airliners.net on this very subject with people who actually design and maintain the systems in question, and the conclusion was not very favorable regarding the veracity of the claims.

 

[Big Iron]

A modern derivation of the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." Sadly, the simplest explanation is operator error.

Like when med students are taught how to diagnosing an illness.........When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras.

 

[Hal]

You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.

Edit: WTF, it is stripping links, at least from the app.

Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?

So what you are saying is that there is no sattelite communications link between the Amtrak engine control center and home base. There is a GPS link though. There's your way in. While the scenerio that I suggest might not be possible, I have trouble believing that an expereinced Amtrak engineer, (who ran the NEC route many many times) could be so careless as to accelerate to 106 MPH before a known curve. I am of the opinion that anything can be hacked but only time will tell what really happened..

The GPS link is not a way in. It is a "box" that sends an ID signal. It is not wired to any control system. It only lets CNOC or anyone who can recieve the signal know the location of the locomotive. There is nothing to hack.

 

[neroden]

Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...

 

[jis]

You'd apparently require considerable amount of help from the Chinese.... but on the NEC it won't do you any good since no control system uses any input from any GPS.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You'd apparently require considerable amount of help from the Chinese.... but not NEC it won't do you any good since no control system uses any input from any GPS.

Or a 12year old whiz kid with a lap top in some third world country!

 

[Paulus]

Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...

USAF satellites, not CIA or commercial. Though if you were going to do that you'd be better off just positioning a GPS jammer set in a spoof mode (rather than broadcast jamming) near where you wanted to mess with the train. Though Amtrak's PTC doesn't work that way so it wouldn't do you any good.

 

[Hal]

Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...

USAF satellites, not CIA or commercial. Though if you were going to do that you'd be better off just positioning a GPS jammer set in a spoof mode (rather than broadcast jamming) near where you wanted to mess with the train. Though Amtrak's PTC doesn't work that way so it wouldn't do you any good.

Amtrak's PTC will use radio signals to enforce speeds. The signals will be from the transponders. So in that sense it controls the locomotive. But all it can do is put on the brakes to enforce speed restrictions, either temporary or permanent. Unfortunatly it was not in service in the area of the crash. We can imagine in the future a control system that could run the locomotive. Would not even need a man/woman in the cab. I guess then we could imagine a hacker putting on the throttle of that kind of control. But Amtrak is far from that kind of technology currently.

 

[user 1215]

I'm more terrified of systems like WMATA that are 100% computer controlled and the engineer on board can get fired for driving manually. That has resulted in some horrific crashes.

This tech exists in small, closed systems already all over the place. Most huge airports in the US have operator-less transports. Japan has rail lines with no on board personnel. It's coming.

There ain't enough tin foil (does anyone even make tinfoil anymore?) to protect everyone from everything.

 

[jis]

Amtrak's PTC will use radio signals to enforce speeds. The signals will be from the transponders. So in that sense it controls the locomotive. But all it can do is put on the brakes to enforce speed restrictions, either temporary or permanent. Unfortunatly it was not in service in the area of the crash. We can imagine in the future a control system that could run the locomotive. Would not even need a man/woman in the cab. I guess then we could imagine a hacker putting on the throttle of that kind of control. But Amtrak is far from that kind of technology currently.

Doesn't the ACS-64 have the so called "cruise control" feature? If it does then it surely is capable of increasing the speed of the train too in order to maintain the set speed, no?
I don;t know the answer and I am asking this as a genuine question and not as a rhetorical one. Thanks.

 

[crescent2]

We know that before the emergency brakes were applied by the engineer, the train had accelerated. That would at first seem to indicate the engineer wasn't dozing or incapacitated, but I have a question for those familiar with the locomotive. Could the throttle be moved forward if someone fell onto it (from dozing or some medical issue), or are there "stops" or extra sideways movements involved in putting it into different notches or speed levels that would make that unlikely? Just wondering. I know it's all speculation at this point.

The engineer had a good record and it's just hard to imagine that he was being deliberately reckless or that inattentive if he was well and awake.

Could someone who knows tell us whether the throttle could easily be moved forward if the engineer was incapacitated and fell forward onto it?