Amtrak dining and cafe service

[jis]

So, are you saying that Congress canned the dining car on the Crescent?

Not entirely. In the context of the pandemic, Congress gave money to retain employees for a limited period of time. It took its own time to actually provide it and then did not extend that to cover the period of drastically reduced revenues. The management IMHO overreacted and reduced more than they should have. It takes many hands to produce the mess that is Amtrak.

But in the context of Diners, yes, Congress had pretty much determined that there shall be no 6 servers per Diner and set the guardrails saying that almost specifically, for many many years now, and that has not changed even in the new found enthusiasm for food service. As a matter of fact Congress for many years had directed Amtrak to reduce food service to an unspecified very low level, in case you forgot recent history.

 

[MARC Rider]

It does seem that back in the good old days (My experience was with Amtrak's Merchant's Limited in 1975), the dining car staff (and they didn't have 6 servers) was able to serve a lot more meals (and thus yield a lot more revenue) pretty quickly. I was able to eat a full dinner on the Merchant's while riding between Trenton and Newark. Actually, come to think of it, the Acela can serve up meals that quickly nowadays, too. There might be something to getting rid of dinner reservations, longer hours open, and having patrons order their meals themselves, either by marking the menu, like in the good old days or preordering when reserving their tickets. Prepaying meals should take some load off the servers, as they wouldn't have to worry about running credit cards, etc. They should be thinking about moving as many people as possible through the dining car, thus increasing revenues. It seems like there are changes they can make that will not degrade the quality of the food, nor increase costs too much.

 

[Rasputin]

6 servers in a 48 seat diner sounds like way too many. They’d run into each other! The staffing out west works for the current demand (sleeper only).

I don't believe I ever recommended six servers in a diner. Perhaps someone recommended that but I did not.

As I recall from the trip on the Crescent in May 2019 (which was my only experience with the new dining cars and unfortunately may remain my only experience with these cars) the car appeared to be staffed by two servers, a chef and perhaps an assistant chef (corrections would be welcome.) The food quality and service was excellent with that small staff but I guess that was too much for Amtrak or Congress or whatever.

 

[Rasputin]

I also recall that the diner-lite car which ran on the Lake Shore for a few years would serve some excellent meals. It appeared to be staffed by a chef and 2 (or 3) servers. Maybe there was another chef as well but I don't recall it so corrections would be welcome.

This car was replaced by one of the new dining cars which is not used as it was intended but serves as a "heat 'em up" car for flex meals.

 

[jis]

I also recall that the diner-lite car which ran on the Lake Shore for a few years would serve some excellent meals. It appeared to be staffed by a chef and 2 (or 3) servers. Maybe there was another chef as well but I don't recall it so corrections would be welcome.

This car was replaced by one of the new dining cars which is not used as it was intended but serves as a "heat 'em up" car for flex meals.

In between those two was a period of over a year of Contemporary Meal Service on LSL which consisted of only cold meals. Slowly a few hot items were added for Dinner, all Microwaved of course. Eventually what came out of all that was the Flex Menu. It was an excruciating journey downhill, all caused by the Mica Amendment.

Downgrades that hit its nadir with removal of Dining Service from the Star and Contemporary menu on the LSL happened before Anderson. The downgrades on the Star and the LSL was blamed on the delay in the delivery of the Viewliner II Diners as the Heritage Diners came up for their very expensive periodic overhauls. The cars were withdrawn instead of spending large chunks of money on strip down and rebuild overhauls. IIRC. Flex Menu on single level trains happened in the Anderson era. Across the board Flex Menu happened during the pandemic.

 

[user 14106]

Downgrades to the Cardinal and CONO also occurred before the pandemic did they not? I recall hearing the diner lite situation on the CONO was not good before flex.

 

[jis]

Downgrades to the Cardinal and CONO also occurred before the pandemic did they not? I recall hearing the diner lite situation on the CONO was not good before flex.

I believe it happened at or about the time when LSL lost hot meals of any sort.

 

[user 14106]

I believe it happened at or about the time when LSL lost hot meals of any sort.

Or I meant to say and misspoke - they got downgraded from full dining car service with the full kitchen to a diner lite style before the contemporary/flexible dining initiative came to those trains - didn't mean to say the pandemic. I remember people saying the CONO was the worst of all the trains before flexible dining and some felt flexible dining was actually an improvement on that particular train.

 

[cocojacoby]

Here is a revised version of something I proposed two years ago on another website. Some of you might enjoy the concept:

THE ENTREPRENEURIAL CHEF

Okay it's just an idea but what if Amtrak tries this?

Amtrak "gives away" it's dining car service to its chefs. Each chef gets to run their own dining service. They have control of what to order and what to serve. They can get as creative as they want. They make the menus and they set their own prices. They can hire the servers they know are good or make it a family affair like many mom and pop restaurants. They must open for at least traditional dining car hours but can also operate up to 24 hours if they want. They got a pretty good captive audience to sell to.

The entrepreneurial chef does not get paid by Amtrak but they get to keep the profits that they make. They get to run their own restaurant without the high risk and overhead expense. I am sure there are Amtrak chefs out there who have great ideas on how to run a dining car but never got the chance to do it. I can see a spirited competition between chefs generating some good press for Amtrak and maybe having people ride certain trains just for the different culinary experience. Each chef would have his or her own specialty dish along with some required items.

The cost to run the dining car for Amtrak would be minimal. Amtrak can proudly tell the story of the unique opportunity it has given to these hard working men and woman who toil very hard at their unique craft behind the scenes. I think this could be a pretty exciting opportunity for some hard working folks who would never get such a chance in their lifetime and great publicity for Amtrak.

Could it work? Why not give it a try?

 

[amtrakpass]

Even in the 2000's to early 2010's I remember having no problem as a coach passenger getting a seat in the diner on busy or sold out trains both Western and Eastern Long Distance. Then I distinctly remember after they switched to some form of the new dining on the Capitol Limited(years before covid) the crew refused to seat me in the diner even though the train was not busy saying there was no room and the sleeper passengers had all taken all the reservations. It made no sense at the time and it still doesn't to me. It shouldn't be that hard to schedule and appropriately staff a diner to serve both coach and sleeper passengers.

 

[zephyr17]

---

Then I distinctly remember after they switched to some form of the new dining on the Capitol Limited(years before covid) the crew refused to seat me in the diner even though the train was not busy saying there was no room and the sleeper passengers had all taken all the reservations.

That was almost certainly due to one of the early iterations of "Simplified Dining Service" ("SDS"), which was the initial response to the mandate Amtrak had received by John Mica legislation that food service ultimately could no longer be covered in any part by the subsidy. They cut back on dining car staffing, only one server (as well as degrading the food itself), so the approach were reservations open for one or two tables at 15 minute intervals. They could not use all or even most of the physical tables because there wasn't staff to provide service. That drastically limited capacity and often cut coach out entirely because sleeping car passengers took all the available slots. They ultimately restaffed somewhat and went back to a more traditional reservations system, but the never restaffed to the level it had been and capacity never fully recovered. As you said, it was long before flex or COVID and can laid at John Mica's doorstep.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There have been several different dining car setups on the Capitol. A sold out Capitol departing Chicago does have some capacity problems because of departing Chicago after dinner service usually begins and then crossing over into eastern time before dinner service ends.

Of course…. If you really wanted to maximize profits, if the sleeping car attendants would advertise and offer room service than more guests would use it which frees up more spots in the diner for coach passengers.

 

[amtrakpass]

Yes, I think it might have been due to the change in staffing that they were saying there was no room. But it reminded me at the time that leadership matters. Whether or not there was actually time and room to seat coach passengers, (and I believe there was ample time on this particular trip long ago) the staff got the feeling, if not the official word from management that it was not important so it was not done. It is amazing to me what a difference it makes when people know what they are working toward is valued by the company and vice-versa when it is not. I am encouraged to see that we have some long overdue improvements coming to dining and even if it is not implemented perfectly I think the overall effect will be quite positive.

 

[railiner]

6 servers in a 48 seat diner sounds like way too many. They’d run into each other! The staffing out west works for the current demand (sleeper only).

You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...just not the same. 6 waiters meant one serving two tables of four, or more if one was covering the Turquoise Room in the adjacent Pleasure Dome Lounge car.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...

I’ve had that on Amtrak. Everything except the China exists now on the western trains. I mean “impeccable” service varies from train to train of course but not because of the number of servers haha.

 

[railiner]

I’ve had that on Amtrak. Everything except the China exists now on the western trains. I mean “impeccable” service varies from train to train of course but not because of the number of servers haha.

I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?

I’m a little too young for that but I’ve eaten in plenty of fancy restaurants as well as all sorts of Dining cars including the Ed Ellis Pullman cars that followed the Pullman standards probably closer than Pullman themselves haha.

Amtrak dining cars are certainly not consistent with excellent service, but it definitely exists.

 

[zephyr17]

I'm happy that you had an excellent dining experience on Amtrak., but I am curious if you have dined in a Super Chief or similar train during the '50's or early '60's as a basis of comparison?

@crescent-zephyr may not have ridden the Super Chief, but I have, although it was in 1970. The service was indeed excellent. It was speedy, polite, thorough and nothing was forgotten. It was indeed considerably better than my average experience in Amtrak diners from at least the 80s on (early Amtrak was staffed by experienced railroad crews).

 

[railiner]

@crescent-zephyr may not have ridden the Super Chief, but I have, although it was in 1970. The service was indeed excellent. It was speedy, polite, thorough and nothing was forgotten. It was indeed considerably better than my average experience in Amtrak diners from at least the 80s on (early Amtrak was staffed by experienced railroad crews).

Like your "namesake train"? When L J Bernstein managed the dining car services?

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

Uh, that's the way it was before Flex Dining. I remember one coach trip I took on the Silver Star around 2010, a packed train (it was President's Day weekend), and no dinner in the diner for me, I had to settle for a microwaved pizza in the cafe car. A fellow coach passenger was so annoyed that he had words with the conductor that resulted in him and his family being put off the train somewhere in Southside Virginia (not at a station stop, I recall flashing blue and red lights of a vehicle parked by the tracks when we made the unscheduled stop.) On the other hand, I had no problem getting a table for breakfast in the dining car.

That's also the way it was when I'd ride the Empire Builder as a college student way back in the 1970s.

 

[zephyr17]

Like your "namesake train"? When L J Bernstein managed the dining car services?

Yeah, that, too.

 

[MARC Rider]

You can hardly compare the level of service between the two examples...the Fred Harvey service was what you would get in a fine dining landside restaurant, with polished real silverware, snowy linen tablecloths and napkins, fine china and glassware, fresh cut flowers, impeccable course by course service...just not the same. 6 waiters meant one serving two tables of four, or more if one was covering the Turquoise Room in the adjacent Pleasure Dome Lounge car.

Not every train was the Super Chief, and I suspect that the lesser trains has scaled-down, though perfectly adequate, service. My experience with eastern Amtrak trains in the 1970s (probably legacy PRR service) was that they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable." Yeah, they had cloth tablecloths, silver plate utensils, etc., but even cheap restaurants back in the day had that sort of stuff. The actual food was good, but pretty plain, which makes sense, as the point is to serve everybody decent food, rather than attempt to have a 5-star dining experience. The main thing about the old-time diners that I remember was that it wasn't some sort of dramatic production, like it seems to be nowadays. You showed up without a reservation, they seated you quickly, even on a crowded train (community seating), you ordered quickly from a simplified menu, you were served quickly, you paid, and you were on your way. The staff was there to get you served, not find reasons not to. If there were "rule" and "policies" they were not apparent to the customer -- you just came and they served you, you paid, and you left for the next customer.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable."

That’s my thoughts as well. The service during that time frame was not known to be overly friendly. I’m thinking of the fancy restaurants where they say things like “bread sir” or “more wine sir” - it’s efficient and professional but not overly friendly.

 

[Palmland]

Not every train was the Super Chief, and I suspect that the lesser trains has scaled-down, though perfectly adequate, service. My experience with eastern Amtrak trains in the 1970s (probably legacy PRR service) was that they were courteous, but "efficient" would be a better word than "impeccable." Y

I would mostley agree, although I think that describes the service on the better prre Amtrak trains too. The difference was mainly in the place settings and presentation. I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous. Brusque would be a better word to describe it. Now the Baltimore and Ohio was courteous. even if the dining cars were mainly upgraded heavyweight equipment. I'm sure those same personnel continued on into early Amtrak.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I would disagree though that the PRR dining car service was courteous. Brusque would be a better word to describe it. Now the Baltimore and Ohio was courteous.

See…. I’m starting to be convinced it’s just a railroad dining car thing and not an Amtrak thing. Inconsistent service is just part of the deal! Haha