Amtrak dining and cafe service

[jis]

No arguments there. what I meant is I suspect when Anderson left we would have eventually had this same shift back away from the Flex food with the push to improve food service. Had it not been for the pandemic expanding the flexible food out west and basically causing a two year freeze frame and all the related effect on staffing moving back away from flex towards better options may have been quicker. Of course who knows how the world would have gone and if we had gotten something like the IIJA if the world didn’t go the way it did with Covid.

That I do agree with completely. I mentioned what I did as a general educational statement, not specific to what you wrote but actually responding to the screed posted a little earlier which seemed to indicate that the whole food service fiasco came from Anderson. Sorry for inadvertently entangling you in my attempt to try to correct a misconception that some (not you) have seemingly displayed in the thread.

 

[pi314]

The excuse for introducing Flex to Western trains was COVID IIRC. No? Flex or equivalent had started appearing on Eastern trains before Anderson came about. Contemporary crap started under Boardman.

That does sound right. My only experience was when it was only a few months old. All the train porters/attendants I asked about it were really discouraged over the development. They hate it as much as the passengers. They did say back then that it was all trains East of the Mississippi River for the time being, but feared it would spread like a cancer through the entire network.

 

[Bob Dylan]

That does sound right. My only experience was when it was only a few months old. All the train porters/attendants I asked about it were really discouraged over the development. They hate it as much as the passengers. They did say back then that it was all trains East of the Mississippi River for the time being, but feared it would spread like a cancer through the entire network.

And it did!

 

[eackly]

If you use real plates, you need someone to wash them, staffing is not there on many routes yet. You also need working dishwashers.

Not necessarily, if you had enough dishware, cutlery, you could simply store them dirty and then send them to be cleaned once the train arrived at its terminus.

This is how airlines handle dishware/cutlery, the dirty dishware and cutlery are loaded into carts and the inflight caterer takes the carts off the aircraft, washes it all and then uses them for a future flight.

 

[dlagrua]

IMO, the Flex dining is very cheap low quality food loaded with fat, salt, sugar and unhealthy food additives. Decent quality food can be had without traditional dining. Going back before flex was introduced; the Cardinal served a menu in the Diner lite/Cafe car that was very similar to traditional dining but the plates were pre-prepared heated in a convection over and served to you at your table. Two employees handled the cafe and sleeper dining. One was the counterman the other was a food preparer/chef/server. The only item I recall that was missing was the steak. I believe passengers would respond well if this minimum level of dining were re-introduced Why it was cut out is a mystery.

 

[fillyjonk]

On the Texas Eagle from Chicago to LA and I have had two meals served by a surly attendant. The salmon for dinner was dry and almost inedible, Usually for breakfast I get the continental and I always get the breakfast sandwich and cereal. This morning the attendant says one or the other. I chose the sandwich. The bialy was rock hard.

Gee, can’t wait for lunch and dinner. Only solace is traditional dining on the Sunset tomorrow. Flex is as mediocre as ever. Please bring back real food on every train!

Must have been that attendant, every time I've taken the Eagle recently I've gotten either yogurt plus muffin or oatmeal plus yogurt for breakfast and been asked if I don't want the other two things that come with it (the sandwich and then either oatmeal or muffin).

Still, I wish we could get the real food back on the eastern leg of the Eagle. It seems like every time I ride the pasta dinner gets gluey-er.

 

[joelkfla]

Not necessarily, if you had enough dishware, cutlery, you could simply store them dirty and then send them to be cleaned once the train arrived at its terminus.

This is how airlines handle dishware/cutlery, the dirty dishware and cutlery are loaded into carts and the inflight caterer takes the carts off the aircraft, washes it all and then uses them for a future flight.

Yeah, but they're not sitting on the plane unwashed for two days.

 

[OBS]

Yeah, but they're not sitting on the plane unwashed for two days.

Not to mention where do you store all these dirty dishes without tripping over them!

 

[NYP2NFL01]

A bad crew’s attitude can seep into everything, including food preparation.

So true. The salmon on my less-than-stellar Silver Meteor trip in May 2023 was inedible also. This was also the trip with the surly and lazy SCA! So, it seems the formula is: Flex Menu + Surly Crew = Even Worse Than Normal Flex Meals

 

[jis]

Not to mention where do you store all these dirty dishes without tripping over them!

I think storing away dirty dishes for washing at the Commissary works only for single overnight trips.

What the airlines do is they simply stuff the dishes back into the carts that they came in. Since that is where they came from, it is guaranteed that there is enough space to store them away in them.

But as I said, this does not work for trips longer than overnight, with at most two or three meals to be served.

 

[user 14106]

For traditional dining a certain amount of dish washing is done even now without the china - for everything used in the kitchen for cooking, flatware, glasses, etc.

 

[jis]

For traditional dining a certain amount of dish washing is done even now without the china - for everything used in the kitchen for cooking, flatware, glasses, etc.

Which is already different from the 17hr Intecontinental flights, where no washing is done since water is heavy and whatever is carried is preserved mostly for use in restroom, and in some cases for First Class suite showers. Of course, there is no kitchen and no cooking either.

 

[fdaley]

The excuse for introducing Flex to Western trains was COVID IIRC. No? Flex or equivalent had started appearing on Eastern trains before Anderson came about. Contemporary crap started under Boardman.

I don't think this is correct. The Lake Shore and Capitol switched to "contemporary dining," the precursor to flex, on June 1, 2018. That's the point at which they did away with table service and, for a time, all hot meals. Anderson became CEO in July 2017, so this was definitely his innovation. The only really bad thing that I can recall happening under Boardman was that the Silver Star lost its dining car altogether.

 

[user 14106]

I don't think this is correct. The Lake Shore and Capitol switched to "contemporary dining," the precursor to flex, on June 1, 2018. That's the point at which they did away with table service and, for a time, all hot meals. Anderson became CEO in July 2017, so this was definitely his innovation. The only really bad thing that I can recall happening under Boardman was that the Silver Star lost its dining car altogether.

But there were trains that had downgraded dining prior to that including the Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Lake Shore, and as you said Silver Star. The push to gut food service and Mica nonsense began when Boardman was in. Contemporary cold meals which evolved into flex were yes an Anderson thing. If I remember from trip reports what they had on the CONO was generally considered the worst and for that train flex was actually an improvement.

 

[user 14106]

I’d also add the cafe car got pretty awful by a certain point - worst of all during Covid. The NEC menu especially so - the NEC cafe got pretty bare bones at the low point during Covid.

 

[fdaley]

But there were trains that had downgraded dining prior to that including the Cardinal, City of New Orleans, Lake Shore, and as you said Silver Star. The push to gut food service and Mica nonsense began when Boardman was in. Contemporary cold meals which evolved into flex were yes an Anderson thing. If I remember from trip reports what they had on the CONO was generally considered the worst and for that train flex was actually an improvement.

The Lake Shore downgrade was related to the retirement of the last heritage diners, resulting in a return to "diner lite" service in an Amfleet lounge. It still had most of the menu items available on other trains as well as table service. In my view, the "diner lite" was way better than what replaced it. Adding insult to injury, the "contemporary" service began the moment the new Viewliner diners appeared in the Lake Shore consist.

 

[user 14106]

Interestingly how flex is served varies by route. It’s done with table service on the Lake Shore - while on the meteor you usually have to walk up.

 

[Rasputin]

The Lake Shore downgrade was related to the retirement of the last heritage diners, resulting in a return to "diner lite" service in an Amfleet lounge. It still had most of the menu items available on other trains as well as table service. In my view, the "diner lite" was way better than what replaced it. Adding insult to injury, the "contemporary" service began the moment the new Viewliner diners appeared in the Lake Shore consist.

In our opinion, the diner lite service on the Lake Shore (around 2017 and 2018), while somewhat of a downgrade from traditional dining (they didn't serve steaks), was way better than the contemporary dining replacement which we endured on the Lake Shore in 2019. If the diner lite service on the Lake Shore had continued, we would have no complaints.

As I recall, the heritage diners on the Lake Shore were retired and replaced by diner-lite service because of defects discovered in the condition of the heritage diners. I never considered it a deliberate attempt to downgrade the food service as has happened with subsequent decisions.

 

[jis]

In our opinion, the diner lite service on the Lake Shore (around 2017 and 2018), while somewhat of a downgrade from traditional dining (they didn't serve steaks), was way better than the contemporary dining replacement which we endured on the Lake Shore in 2019. If the diner lite service on the Lake Shore had continued, we would have no complaints.

As I recall, the heritage diners on the Lake Shore were retired and replaced by diner-lite service because of defects discovered in the condition of the heritage diners. I never considered it a deliberate attempt to downgrade the food service as has happened with subsequent decisions.

Unfortunately Anderson or not the Diner-Lite's and traditional dining's days were numbered because of the Mica Amendment. Amtrak to remain a legal operation was on a vector to reduce food service to a point where it was a non loss-making P&L center by itself. It was required to do so by 2020. What was unconscionable is that even Amtrak's friends in Congress saw it fit to do nothing about getting rid of the Mica Amendment until the 11th hour and 59th minute.

 

[fdaley]

Interestingly how flex is served varies by route. It’s done with table service on the Lake Shore - while on the meteor you usually have to walk up.

How flex is handled has also varied over time. Mostly I've avoided it as much as possible. The only two times I used the Lake Shore for overnight travel since the diner lite ended, in 2018 and early 2020, it was still walk-up service. When we rode it last fall from New York to Albany, the meals were delivered to our bare table in their tubs, though there were no place settings or any other features I would associate with "table service."

When we rode the Crescent in late 2019, the LSA took our orders and delivered the meals to our table, though we had to go collect our own plastic cutlery and napkins. Since then, of course, the Crescent lost its dining car altogether.

 

[Sidney]

Interestingly how flex is served varies by route. It’s done with table service on the Lake Shore - while on the meteor you usually have to walk up.

On the Eagle yesterday they handed out the brownie and butter cake in it’s bag, Same dessert for lunch today on the Sunset but it was served on a plate with whipped cream added. They handed me my breakfast sandwich yesterday in its cellophane wrapping. I’ve done the Chicago LA Eagle Sunset quite often. I am still amazed at the transformation of quality in every sense of the word once you pass San Antonio.

 

[railiner]

The excuse for introducing Flex to Western trains was COVID IIRC. No? Flex or equivalent had started appearing on Eastern trains before Anderson came about. Contemporary crap started under Boardman.

Can’t recall for sure, but wasn’t the “contemporary” concept a result of the combination of Mica, and the retirement of the Heritage diner’s?
At least on the LSL?

(posted before I downloaded similar replies), sorry…

 

[Sidney]

I had one of the last real meals on the Capitol Limited in late May 2018 and a passenger made a speech about how traditional dining was ending and how upset he was. It’s been five years and we are still stuck with this crap. Thanks Anderson and Mica for the most unpopular and ridiculous move in Amtraks history.

 

[zephyr17]

Can’t recall for sure, but wasn’t the “contemporary” concept a result of the combination of Mica, and the retirement of the Heritage diner’s?
At least on the LSL?

I know the substitution of "diner-lite" service in an Amcafe for full diner service on the Lake Shore was due a shortage of serviceable Heritage diners. The Lake Shore got the hit because it was shorter than other runs like the Crescent. The original plan was that it was going to get full dining back once the Viewliner diners were fully deployed. Dropping from Diner-Lite to "contemporary"/Flex was a separate thing and was not the initial plan.

I recall that diner-lite service on the LSL was actually pretty good. The food was tasty and presented well. It had it's own separate Amcafe acting solely as a diner. They still had a food service specialist preparing/heating the food and waitstaff. It wasn't a harried attendant doing everything. While you couldn't get the steak, in most other ways it was equivalent to the experience in the diners of the period. It was far, far superior to Flex.

 

[PVD]

I know the substitution of "diner-lite" service in an Amcafe for full diner service on the Lake Shore was due a shortage of serviceable Heritage diners. The Lake Shore got the hit because it was shorter than other runs like the Crescent. The original plan was that it was going to get full dining back once the Viewliner diners were fully deployed. Dropping from Diner-Lite to "contemporary"/Flex was a separate thing and was not the initial plan.

I recall that diner-lite service on the LSL was actually pretty good. The food was tasty and presented well. It had it's own separate Amcafe acting solely as a diner. They still had a food service specialist preparing/heating the food and waitstaff. It wasn't a harried attendant doing everything. While you couldn't get the steak, in most other ways it was equivalent to the experience in the diners of the period. It was far, far superior to Flex.

I agree, I took a few LSL trips in that period, and no steak notwithstanding, as long as yo had full staffing, the offerings were pretty good.