Amtrak Express LD Trains?

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I'd like to note that the above chart probably underestimates the number of connections on both ends: Towards the end of FY14, there were a lot of pax force-splitting tickets due to OTP problems (e.g. breaking a reservation at either WAS or CHI and staying overnight to account for lousy OTP...I did this once many years ago after a "surprise" overnight and made a point of enjoying a nice steak lunch in Chicago while doing so). A large number of those would have been Builder pax (dealing with crap OTP on both trains) but once the Cap's OTP went in the tank due to the NS meltdown you'd have had those sorts of passengers showing up all over the place. There's probably a larger "tradition" of doing so on the NEC as well (I'm not entirely sure how the system handles a reservation where one switches to an earlier, perhaps technically "illegal", connection when the Cap hits WAS early) but I think I've booked a replacement leg WAS-RVR and then canned my existing leg. There have also been plenty of folks who've either gambled with the Star using a non-guaranteed reservation or switched over at the last minute once the train was more or less on time out of Cumberland.

You're probably looking at an underestimate of the number of connections in CHI of around 3-5k and probably 2-3k at WAS. Not a huge underestimate, but not trivial either. There are probably a similar number of "lost" trips in there as well (e.g. me in October 2014, when I did that f-word to get out to Salt Lake City) where the risk/cost of the extra night in Chicago killed a trip or forced someone onto the LSL, though the OTP issues probably hit non-connecting traffic by a good amount as well.

Edit: Ok, setting aside the question of connections on both ends, there's a painful fact that while the WB time is almost perfect for business travel (I once used it to travel to/from a conference in Chicago in lieu of flying...this was back in 2009 and I was giving a presentation at a political science conference), EB the time is less desirable. On the one hand, this was always the case (the time change helps WB but hinders EB so that the Broadway and 20th Century would leave NYP/NYG 1700 and arrive CHI 0800 but had to leave CHI earlier and/or arrive NYP/NYG later...the Century would leave at 1530/arrive 0830 and the Broadway leave 1500/arrive 0800...because of this swing).

I do understand why the schedule is as it is. That doesn't mean it doesn't stink from many perspectives; for example, there is no way to get from Chicago to New York without blowing a full day eastbound while you can manage a passable version of it westbound (leaving NYP at just before 1600 isn't ideal, but if you work anywhere in Manhattan you can still stay at work until 1400 or perhaps even 1500 if feeling adventurous and still hope to make your train...but cutting out an hour early/getting in an hour or two late because of scheduling is a lot more defensible than having to lose a full day).

In an ideal-but-fiscally-constrained world [1][2], you'd have (at least) two round-trips on each of the NYP-CHI routes [3]. Pairing them is partly a mechanism of equipment turning, but the short version is that you'd have a "morning arrival" train (aiming for getting to the desired endpoint sometime between 0800 and 1000) and an "evening departure" train (aiming for a departure after 1700). I've hammered out some timetables to this effect before, but the gist is that you'd have passable daylight service in all cities on the routes both ways save perhaps Buffalo and Pittsburgh (where you're probably going to be stuck with marginal times to some extent at least one way). You'd probably be able to have more-or-less Meteor-variant consists on all of the trains out of NYP [4] with the variations being on the "split sets" [5]. The big plus to doing this is that you'd have a lot less sets sitting dead at either end, so from what I can tell two of the three operations should "only" need five sets (the Cardinal might still need six; I'd have to check timings, but I don't think you can save a set there).

The main advantage to such a piled-up setup of trains is that you'd have very strong overall connectivity: The early-arriving Broadway ought to trigger a legal connection to the Palmetto (which, at present, doesn't connect to anything but 65/66/67) and a late-departing counterpart would likely manage this as well. Depending on your desires, you could probably pack the trains into/out of Chicago into a pair of pulses (which would at least reduce aggravation on NS's part). CSX would still raise unholy hell about the added demand on the New River line, but I suspect that a bunch of EPA mandates will erode that issue over time.

[1] Basically, a situation where there is more or less unlimited equipment available and we have the slotting privileges that Amtrak commanded at A-Day but serious consideration has to be given to containing direct operating losses...e.g. the stuff in that famous bar graph, ignoring almost all overhead considerations.

[2] Good grief, we do come up with the oddest concepts, don't we?

[3] Lake Shore routing, Broadway routing, and Cardinal routing. Each would have a split: Lake Shore to Boston, Broadway to Washington (even though this split would arguably dominate at least one of the trains in question), and Cardinal to either Hampton Roads or St. Louis/Kansas City.

[4] 1 Baggage, 3 sleepers, 1 diner, 3-4 coaches

[5] Boston and St. Louis would probably look pretty similar to the present Cardinal; Washington would be the "big one" because of various connection options; I'd actually see that one running a baggage car, 3-5 sleepers, a diner, and 2-3 coaches...that route is going to be sleeper-heavy and coach-light.
 
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I think All Aboard Ohio's proposed Three Rivers schedule would probably be the best to get an early morning arrival into NYP (leaving CHI 11:50am and arriving in NYP at 8:58am).

http://allaboardohio.org/2015/09/22/new-report-restore-passenger-rail/

http://freepdfhosting.com/38886f65ec.pdf

If we assume the Eastern trains are locked to leave in the evening from CHI, maybe we can move the trains from the west coast to arrive earlier.

SWC: Currently LAX 6:15pm to CHI 3:15pm. The time is good for LA (they can leave LA with little or no interruption in work schedules). If you move the train to arrive in CHI a few hours earlier then #4 arrives in Kansas City in the middle of the night. The only other possible schedule to serve KCY would be to leave KCY around 11:43pm for a 7:15am arrival in CHI. That's an 8 hour shift which moves the other big market of the SWC (Albuquerque) to 3:42am/4:10am.

CZ: Currently Emeryville 9:10am to CHI 2:50pm. You can't really move Emeryville much earlier (remember San Fran still has to take Thruway buses to Emeryville and they currently leave 7:00am). Any shift would have to leave SAC before midnight. But SAC at 11:09pm (12 hour shift) and it gets into CHI 2:50AM.

TE (Counting from SAS only): Currently SAS 7:00am to CHI 1:52pm. You need to take care of SAS, Austin, Ft. Worth, and Dallas. Overnight from SAS to Ft. Worth isn't possible and leaving DAL before midnight would have the train in CHI in the evening.

EB: Currently SEA 4:40pm/Portland 4:45pm to CHI 3:55pm. Minneapolis is probably the big intermediate market. With 8 hrs. between MSP and CHI, it might be possible to do leaving late night from MSP and arrive in CHI early. Let's do an 8 hour shift. That would be MSP 12:03am (not ideal but the CL out of PGH is close to that time now) and CHI 7:55am. You would then leave SEA 8:40am/PDX 8:45am. They would lose the workday in SEA/PDX but gain it back in CHI so I think that's a reasonable trade. Then Spokane would be ... 5:30pm heading east?????? WAY WAY BETTER than 1:30AM!

To me, the Empire Builder is probably the only train you can shift going eastbound without drastically affecting a "major" intermediate market. Considering the EB is the latest arrival into CHI of the four and I do remember the night I left CHI east the train was scheduled to get into CHI at 10:00pm, maybe they are the ones that are most forcing the LSL to be pushed back to the current times. I'm sure the CZ and SWC also cause troubles but I have ridden the SWC eastbound three times and don't remember a drastic delay (I know, too small a sample size). Of course you'd gain more moving the CZ or SWC (at least according to the CL graphic Ryan posted) but if you take the EB out of the picture when it comes to delays from the west coast it might be enough to allow Amtrak to not have to have a "cleanup train" and have the LSL leave earlier. I guarantee Spokane would favor the 8 hour shift and I don't think SEA, PDX, or MSP would object too much (tell me if I'm wrong).
 
In an ideal-but-fiscally-constrained world [1][2], you'd have (at least) two round-trips on each of the NYP-CHI routes [3]. Pairing them is partly a mechanism of equipment turning, but the short version is that you'd have a "morning arrival" train (aiming for getting to the desired endpoint sometime between 0800 and 1000) and an "evening departure" train (aiming for a departure after 1700). I've hammered out some timetables to this effect before, but the gist is that you'd have passable daylight service in all cities on the routes both ways save perhaps Buffalo and Pittsburgh (where you're probably going to be stuck with marginal times to some extent at least one way). You'd probably be able to have more-or-less Meteor-variant consists on all of the trains out of NYP [4] with the variations being on the "split sets" [5]. The big plus to doing this is that you'd have a lot less sets sitting dead at either end, so from what I can tell two of the three operations should "only" need five sets (the Cardinal might still need six; I'd have to check timings, but I don't think you can save a set there).
This is what we should aim for, arguably. Tie the Chicago hub to the NEC and you start to have a sustainably-sized system.

And yeah, Ryan, I toally misremembered the CL numbers. Half the passengers at *Pittsburgh* are connecting. :blush:

Adding it up, about 42K (a quarter) of the riders from Chicago would have a shorter trip on the Broadway -- everyone connecting to the Pennsylvanian or to the NEC. This is not counting people who made their own connections with overnight stays, who don't show up on the chart. Given that the lack of a direct through route is clearly deterring riders from Philadelphia -- these are just the diehards -- we can expect that a direct route to Philadelphia would have much more riders than that. Continuing to New York is obviously even better.

The CL has an extraordinarily high percentage of end-to-end ridership, something which is bad for the train financially. Trains thrive on intermediate-point ridership. The CL actually seems to have been *designed* as a "cleanup" train to carry connecting passengers from the west and the south. Therefore if there is to be a cleanup train, it should be the CL, not the LSL which has strong intermediate ridership.
 
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In an ideal-but-fiscally-constrained world [1][2], you'd have (at least) two round-trips on each of the NYP-CHI routes [3]. Pairing them is partly a mechanism of equipment turning, but the short version is that you'd have a "morning arrival" train (aiming for getting to the desired endpoint sometime between 0800 and 1000) and an "evening departure" train (aiming for a departure after 1700). I've hammered out some timetables to this effect before, but the gist is that you'd have passable daylight service in all cities on the routes both ways save perhaps Buffalo and Pittsburgh (where you're probably going to be stuck with marginal times to some extent at least one way). You'd probably be able to have more-or-less Meteor-variant consists on all of the trains out of NYP [4] with the variations being on the "split sets" [5]. The big plus to doing this is that you'd have a lot less sets sitting dead at either end, so from what I can tell two of the three operations should "only" need five sets (the Cardinal might still need six; I'd have to check timings, but I don't think you can save a set there).
This is what we should aim for, arguably. Tie the Chicago hub to the NEC and you start to have a sustainably-sized system.

And yeah, Ryan, I toally misremembered the CL numbers. Half the passengers at *Pittsburgh* are connecting. :blush:

Adding it up, about 42K (a quarter) of the riders from Chicago would have a shorter trip on the Broadway -- everyone connecting to the Pennsylvanian or to the NEC. This is not counting people who made their own connections with overnight stays, who don't show up on the chart. Given that the lack of a direct through route is clearly deterring riders from Philadelphia -- these are just the diehards -- we can expect that a direct route to Philadelphia would have much more riders than that. Continuing to New York is obviously even better.

The CL has an extraordinarily high percentage of end-to-end ridership, something which is bad for the train financially. Trains thrive on intermediate-point ridership. The CL actually seems to have been *designed* as a "cleanup" train to carry connecting passengers from the west and the south. Therefore if there is to be a cleanup train, it should be the CL, not the LSL which has strong intermediate ridership.
The schedules proposed by the PRIIA were LSL 6pm, CL 7:30pm. That would still get the CL into WAS before 3pm so there would still be 3.5 hours before the Crescent and 4.5 hours before the Silver Meteor. It would also get into PGH at 6:35am, quite a bit better than now. They'd probably have to push the Pennsylvanian back slightly (maybe less time if they go through with the through cars).

Is there anything holding back the switch? Western connections being missed? Maybe my Empire Builder shift would help.
 
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As far as I can tell, the only reason for holding this in reserve is that NS had a meltdown last winter and Amtrak wants to see if it will happen again.
 
As far as I can tell, the only reason for holding this in reserve is that NS had a meltdown last winter and Amtrak wants to see if it will happen again.
The track and station improvement projects on the Empire corridor in NY state also likely are a factor in holding off on a major shift in the LSL schedule. Once the current projects are done, Amtrak should be able to trim the LSL trip times on the Empire corridor and maybe even improved OTP for the NY segment. The NS meltdown in 2014 appears to be long over. However, the Empire Builder severe delays are not over, they are likely to come back next track work season. Then there are the summer track work delays for the CZ, SWC, and the bad year the Texas Eagle is having for frequent 2, 3 and 4 hour delays due to CHI-STL work and frequent delays in Texas.

By mid to late 2017, a lot of the track work improvement projects will be done. And by then, CAF should have completed delivery of the Viewliner IIs (right, CAF?). If the CL and LSL CHI departures are to ever get flipped, that might be when it happens.
 
If you were to assemble a coalition of the Chicago Hub states, the extended NEC states, and add in West Virginia or North Carolina (take your pick) that's 21 states. Throw in the West Coast and you have 24 states, which is a pretty sustainable base for Amtrak (it's not 26, granted, but it's close and there's going to be room to round up other votes on the basis of the LD system).

I'm going to spin off a new thread...this has been bugging me for a while, but I really would like to brainstorm the concept of a "fiscally constrained expanded system" of some sort.
 
The Capitol Limited does serve a purpose but like it's been said it doesn't have as much intermediate which it needs to thrive. What I would like to know is how much traffic the Cap has that it gets from CHI-thru CLE as thats a shared market with the LSL. It has better times to at least Toledo. Going east. I'm curious as to the breakdown. I wonder what would happen if we moved it back to the B&O route. And it's one railroad run. Which is good for on time percentages too.
 
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