Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread

[A Voice]

The other option that could work but I doubt the owners would go along with it. Tack private cars on for axle count in exchange for free parking for the month. You might get some takers.

And the reason they don't let passengers into the dome when it's an axle count car is actually good business. With only one car you can't guarantee it'll be on the train every day. And you don't want people anticipating an amenity that you can't run on every train or every departure of a certain number. People don't like equipment substitutions especially if it is an amenity they were planing on. But then again most passengers don't care about domes they just want to go to their destination safely, and on time. The railfans do but they make up such a small part of the market I wouldn't worry about them. Amtrak wouldn't miss railfans disappearing as they make up such a minority of passengers.

I'm not sure I agree with the common refrain here on the forums that most passengers don't care much for domes. The 'modern' interpretation of the Superliner sightseer Lounge certainly seems to be popular with a varied clientele (and corresponding complaints the Amfleet II lounges don't measure up). It is hardly just (or even primarily) railfans who enjoy watching the countryside.

Regardless, whenever Amtrak schedules the dome on other trains, and thus is expected by passengers, they have no more backup than they would now. It is not good business to leave it closed off - it is a waste. The 'fine print' should always note anyway that specific amenities (the dome) are not guaranteed and equipment substitutions may be made without notice, that's common. I can recall several Southern Railway excursions where I was surprised to find a diesel hauling the train instead of the advertised steam locomotive. Life, and the trip, went on.

The Heritage baggage cars can better fill the role of axle-count cars, but it shouldn't even be necessary. Rusted track isn't exactly a new phenomenon, and other roads seem to cope without such restrictions. Gee, how did they ever manage in the days of the Rail-Diesel Car (RDC)?

 

[Agent]

This video uploaded three days ago by YouTube user Female Railfan shows Ocean View and two Viewliner II baggage cars being used as axle cars in Kankakee, Illinois.

 

[rtabern]

Does anyone know why Amtrak is doing this? As in, running their one and only Great Dome Car as an empty axle-count car back and forth from Chicago to Carbondale for the past couple of weeks now? (610+ miles round-trip per day) I find this aggravating to a degree because I have tried to ride the car several times on advertised runs when it was supposed to be open to the public -- just to have the car pulled for emergency maintenance repairs (bad wheels, axles, etc.) Unless someone can come up with a good explanation -- you think you'd want to limit the mileage and the wear/tear on such a special car. Especially since replacement parts for it are non-standard and would cost more than replacement parts for the baggage cars, coaches, or whatever else they could run instead.

I don't know a lot about mechanics and classic vehicles -- but I think if you're going to take a long road trip somewhere and put a lot of wear and tear or something (either a car or a train car!) you are probably going to take your new Camry vs. your classic '57 Chevy... right? Same thing here.

At the very least -- open the frigin' car for passengers. If it's going to cost the conductors more to work an extra car -- then close off one of the horizon coaches and open the dome up for people to enjoy as regular seating.

Just seeing if anyone has a good explanation for this what appears to be a very bone-headed waste of an awesome heritage car.

This video uploaded three days ago by YouTube user Female Railfan shows Ocean View and two Viewliner II baggage cars being used as axle cars in Kankakee, Illinois.

 

[railiner]

However, one Amtrak car had six axles - the old dome car.

Too bad Amtrak didn't keep the old Hi-Level Diner's.....those cars also had six axle's

 

[edjbox]

I wish those viewliners can be used for revenue baggage service along that route. It's a good way to get extra $ for amtrak and they could use the extra cash.

 

[KnightRail]

It's very simple why the car is not "open". These are state supported routes. That means they are operated under a contractual agreement with defined terms, requirements, equipment etc. If the dome were to be "opened", it's going to require an amended agreement. Totally possible as has happened before and how the Adirondack and Downeaster come to agreements to pay to have the car on their routes. How can those states be expected to pay to host dome service and then it be offered here with no agreement. Talk to the states that support the routes you want the dome on and "open". They are the ones who have to make it happen. From a practacle standpoint, it's already been explained why it makes sense to use the dome for axle count. It has two extra axles compared to everything else. To meet 30, that's one car less required.

 

[Thirdrail7]

If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.

Win-win!

 

[MikefromCrete]

Sorry if this has been covered before but why do some trains need an axle count? As a Brit we have single car DMUs running on 4 axles which have no issues triggering automatic signals and crossings etc

Because CN apparently cannot get their signaling system to detect anything with less than their specified (large) number of axles.

Strange how every other U.S. railroad manages to operates its signaling without such a requirement. Typical CN arrogance.

 

[Seaboard92]

If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.

Win-win!

Now that's a winning solution. I'm not a hundred percent positive how to MU a unit. But if you could MU it to run push pull you can save time turning the train. So in reality three wins

 

[Thirdrail7]

If there is a need for axles and they don't want to spend money overhauling the heritage bags or waste a revenue coach, dig out the HHP-8s and the AEM-7s that are sitting around waiting for the lease to expire and send them out there. They need their inspections until the end of the lease so they're still being maintained. All you need is someone qualified to repair them and perform the necessary inspections.

Win-win!

Now that's a winning solution. I'm not a hundred percent positive how to MU a unit. But if you could MU it to run push pull you can save time turning the train. So in reality three wins

They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.

 

[west point]

They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.

Believe ACs will DCs will not. When converting DC to AC control went from what was called P to the standard 8 position throttle..

 

[rtabern]

It's very simple why the car is not "open". These are state supported routes. That means they are operated under a contractual agreement with defined terms, requirements, equipment etc. If the dome were to be "opened", it's going to require an amended agreement. Totally possible as has happened before and how the Adirondack and Downeaster come to agreements to pay to have the car on their routes. How can those states be expected to pay to host dome service and then it be offered here with no agreement. Talk to the states that support the routes you want the dome on and "open". They are the ones who have to make it happen. From a practacle standpoint, it's already been explained why it makes sense to use the dome for axle count. It has two extra axles compared to everything else. To meet 30, that's one car less required.

Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?

Now the other point you brought up might be the real answer... it wouldn't surprise me at all that Amtrak would put on the dome car -- but then refuse to open it up to the public (essentially holding it hostage) unless the State of Illinois paid them X-amount of money. That is honestly really sad!! Amtrak isn't going to be out anymore money if people are enjoying the dome car or not. If you are going to run the dang thing -- then just let people enjoy it, huh? Why not? What does it hurt? This gets back in it being a real bone-headed move on Amtrak. They would rather lock people out of the dome car than just open it up and lets folks enjoy!

Hey, here is an idea -- the Parlour Cars also have an extra axle and aren't used in the winter on the Coast Starlight anymore. Let's bring them to Chicago and run the hell out of them, but lock everyone out, in January and February between Chicago and Carbondale -- so that they crap out a lot the rest of the year.

 

[railiner]

Sorry, I don't believe the Pacific Parlor Cars, which were the Hi-Level Lounge cars, have six axles...only the diners, which were much heavier....

 

[jis]

Right. The Pacific Parlour Cars are four axle cars. I have no idea where rtabern got the idea that they are six axle.

Have a look at this in case you remain unconvinced. Get a copy and enlarge it enough to see for sure.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Sonoma_Valley_PPC.jpg/1920px-Sonoma_Valley_PPC.jpg

 

[KnightRail]

Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?

What do Amfleet, Horizon, & Superliner coaches all have in common that allow them to be used interchangeably in this example? They are all revenue coach cars where seats can be sold. If there are a fixed number of cars that are "open" and a fixed number that are "closed"/axle count, closing off a coach and opening the dome you have just significantly reduced the number of tickets you can sell. Why not just open every car on the train and let people go everywhere? Well there are labor agreements that dictate crew size based on the number of open cars. Increase crew, increase costs. Why not sell tickets in the dome so it's a revenue car? Well for one it's not ADA accessible...

 

[Thirdrail7]

They will not MU through a train to another engine. We could dig out the NJT ALP-44s which have that capability, but now you're talking expenses. Plus, I believe they are still under lease for another year or two.

Believe ACs will DCs will not. When converting DC to AC control went from what was called P to the standard 8 position throttle..

You can believe what you wish. However, that does not make it any closer to reality. Shall I tell my Drew Barrymore story?

Are the contracts between Amtrak and the State of Illinois so specific that a heritage dome car can't be operated in place of a Horizon or Amfleet coach car? And that a dome car being part of the consist for a couple of weeks would end up being cause for renegotiation of the contract? I don't know the answer specifically with Illinois to be honest... that is why I am asking. However, most state contracts that I have indeed read with Amtrak (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc.) just define the number of passenger cars on the train (i.e. -- 6 cars for the Hiawatha) and don't define what kind of car it has to be. I know on many trains Horizons and Amfleets are switched out interchangeably. Sometimes even Superliners are thrown in the mix (to Quincy, etc.). Can that really not be done with a dome car? I have a hard time believing that a Horizon or Amfleet couldn't be swapped out with the dome car. Plus, besides us railfans -- would your average passenger -- let alone state official really notice?

What do Amfleet, Horizon, & Superliner coaches all have in common that allow them to be used interchangeably in this example? They are all revenue coach cars where seats can be sold. If there are a fixed number of cars that are "open" and a fixed number that are "closed"/axle count, closing off a coach and opening the dome you have just significantly reduced the number of tickets you can sell. Why not just open every car on the train and let people go everywhere? Well there are labor agreements that dictate crew size based on the number of open cars. Increase crew, increase costs. Why not sell tickets in the dome so it's a revenue car? Well for one it's not ADA accessible...

To expand on KnightRail's response, contracts vary. While you mention cars being interchangeable, it really does depend on the contract. There are certain contracts that specify the EXACT equipment that can be used and there can be repercussions for substitutions. Additionally, certain services have specific pools of equipment instead specific consists.

The thing about axle count services is you fail to consider the reimbursement costs under PRIIA. If a state contracts for a certain amount of seats but the host requires a certain amount of axles, that can be an issue. How are the costs divided? That is why you often see non revenue cars as axle count riders. As Knight Rail mentions, if you start opening non-revenue cars (like the dome) which will result in additional crew members, that state must be informed. If they do not approve, Amtrak would eat the costs if they decided to do so on their own.

This isn't a matter of holding someone hostage. There are real considerations involved.

 

[neroden]

We're back to "Class Is undermaintain their railroads". The *correct* solution is for the Class Is to keep their signal system in good working order by keeping the rails shiny. This is actually what A-Train in Denton did faced with the same problem, making sure a train runs through polishing the rails regularly.

Theoretically the FRA could go after CN and UP for failure to keep their signal system in good working order, as failing to do so is a violation of FRA rules. But they won't.

 

[KnightRail]

Here is what is still rolling:

Axle count bags:

1159

1709

1738

1753

1760

1761

Diners:

8505

8507

8509

8510

8512

8527

8530

8531

8532

8550

8553

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Here is what is still rolling:

Axle count bags:

1159

1709

1738

1753

1760

1761

Diners:

8505

8507

8509

8510

8512

8527

8530

8531

8532

8550

8553

Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?

 

[KnightRail]

Yes all 11 of those heritage diners are still very much active. Ten out of the eleven have all seen revenue service and served meals within the past two weeks, and the eleventh only hadn't because of some rogue trees on the Crescent earlier this month. Aside from scheduled maintenance there are so many more appliances and fixtures than can break in a diner compared to a coach that there needs to be a high protect count.

 

[A Voice]

Are all remaining baggage cars now just in axle count service? Pending delivery of the baggage-dorms, I would have expected some to still be needed in actual baggage service.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?

"Unreliable" is such a harsh word. More like "frequently receives extra attention." I've seen cars make a single, four-day round-trip and be bad ordered on return.

 

[KnightRail]

Are all remaining baggage cars now just in axle count service? Pending delivery of the baggage-dorms, I would have expected some to still be needed in actual baggage service.

Yes all remaining active heritage bags are generally exclusively in axle count service. They can be used as in service baggage when needed and one made a trip on the zephyr recently. There are even a few 61000 series bags used to fulfill axle count needs.

 

[Anderson]

Here is what is still rolling:

Axle count bags:

1159

1709

1738

1753

1760

1761

Diners:

8505

8507

8509

8510

8512

8527

8530

8531

8532

8550

8553

Are there really still 11 active heritage diners? That would mean there are 15 total diners, and the Crescent, SM, and LSL only require 11. Are they so unreliable that there needs to be more than 4 not in a consist at a given time?

Remember, you need 11 "live" diners (4 Meteor, 4 Crescent, 3 LSL). You then need at least one more as a maintenance spare and another as a protect in NYP. The other two are probably in CHI and MIA.

(Bear in mind that you've got four "spare/protect" cars covering a base of 11, but if you were running 22 diners on the same combo of routes you'd probably only need one added spare. Such is the nature of fleet scaling efficiency that you can go from 80% of your fleet in service to around 88-90% since protect equipment needs rise on a scale that is much closer to logarithmic than linear...and while your maintenance cycle is pretty linear, unless you're going to short your protect set you're always going to need at least one car in there.)

Edit: Wait, wouldn't 11 active Heritage diners mean there were 13 in service? There's only Indianapolis and Annapolis in use at the moment IIRC (the "diner lite" doesn't count IMHO...it's a "pure" protect car...and 13 would mean 11 "live", a protect in NYP, and one car expected to be down for maintenance at any given time).

 

[KnightRail]

Edit: Wait, wouldn't 11 active Heritage diners mean there were 13 in service? There's only Indianapolis and Annapolis in use at the moment IIRC (the "diner lite" doesn't count IMHO...it's a "pure" protect car...and 13 would mean 11 "live", a protect in NYP, and one car expected to be down for maintenance at any given time).

11 Heritage

1 Viewliner I(8400/Indianapolis)

3 Viewliner II*

-----

15 total diners active

*Annapolis since 12/5/2016, Augusta since 5/21/2017, Atlanta since 5/28/2017