Amtrak in a Different Perspective

[henryj]

Were the Owl and Border Limited overnight trains? I assueme all the other were day trains except the SL, Argonaut, and the many LDs from Union Station.

Yes, those were overnight. There was also overnight service between Houston and Austin, Houston and Shreveport, Houston and New Orleans(MP&SP), Houston and Brownsville on the MP in addition to the Border Ltd and on the MP & ATSF between Houston and Fort Worth. The Santa Fe California Special was overnight between Houston and Lubbock & DFW and Lubbock and also San Angelo. T&P had overnight service between DFW and El Paso and DFW and New Orleans. The Q had overnight between DFW and Amarillo, TZ southbound and #8 northbound. There were also day trains on most of those routes. By the mid 60's most of this was gone and by Amtrak almost all. Texas had a good highway system and the precursor to SWA, Trans-Texas Airlines and it was easy to discontinue intrastate trains in Texas as all the Railroads had to do was show the trains were losing money. A good example was the Houston-Austin train off petition. All these people showed up to testify as to how important the trains were to the economy, etc. The SP lawyer, when his turn came, just asked one question.........how many of you took the train to get here. No hands went up and the trains were discontinued

 

[philabos]

I rode many of the "late" golden era trains. Even in the late 60's, you could have a cocktail in the observation lounge of the CENTURY served to you by a waiter in a white starched jacket before adjourning to the twin unit dining car for a wonderful lobster newburg dinner. Al Perlman's New York Central was not quite in love with the passenger train but as long as the CENTURY ran it was done in style. I usually took the long way around on B&O's CAPITOL LIMITED because sleepercoach passengers on that train could use the first class observation lounge (unlike on the NYC). Pennsy's BROADWAY LTD probably did not have quite as good dining fare as the other two but you knew you were on the last all Pullman train in America.

The BROADWAY's duplex room cars were unique in the east and much prized by the single traveler. I only rode the SUPER CHIEF once and it was quite like an ocean liner experience. Took the TEXAS CHIEF quite a bit more and it too was a great train. I can imagine the fate of a Santa Fe employee who was rude to a passenger .

Amtrak is nothing like what existed under the railroads - nor can it be - times have changed. The train names may go on but it's like renaming the Staten Island Ferry QUEEN MARY and expecting the same experience.

 

[George Harris]

I live in a small town in Georgia. My mother used to tell me about when she could catch a passenger train in town and go to Atllanta to shop at Rich's and Davison's (now Macy's), and then ride back the same day. I can't even imagine that!

I've heard the same type of stories, but my family traveled to Memphis by train to go to Goldsmith's Department Store, and to Little Rock to shop at Pfiefer-Blass (now Dillards's). Don't ask me, but my mother preferred a certain brand of sheets that she could only get at Goldsmith's. They are great sheets; I still use some of them in my home to this day. She would travel to Memphis by train once a year to shop for linens. A different time...

From what town?
There were two lines having passenger train service between Memphis and Little Rock up until the early 1960's. The Rock Island by way of Brinkley and Forest City and the Missouri Pacific by way of Bald Knob. In both cases, if you wanted to go to Memphis you had to get up very early in the morning. Arrivals in Memphis were around 6:00 am. The train back out of Memphis was around 8:30pm on the MoPac and 10:00pm on the Rock. The other train on both used to arrive in the evening. If you were going to Little Rock on the MoPac, you could have about 4 hours in town. The Rock Island did not give you much time in LR for a daytime. In the early 50's up to I do not know when, there was a relatively early morning Rock Island train from Memphis to Little Rock, return arrival in Memphis about 6:00 pm that carried a through ICRR pullman Chicago to Hot Springs.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

A big reason why Amtrak ridership can't be higher is equipment shortages, especially on LD routes. These shortages are being solve at a snail's pace, so Amtrak can't take advantage of the booming dislike of cars and planes.

Were the Owl and Border Limited overnight trains? I assueme all the other were day trains except the SL, Argonaut, and the many LDs from Union Station.

Yes, those were overnight. There was also overnight service between Houston and Austin, Houston and Shreveport, Houston and New Orleans(MP&SP), Houston and Brownsville on the MP in addition to the Border Ltd and on the MP & ATSF between Houston and Fort Worth. The Santa Fe California Special was overnight between Houston and Lubbock & DFW and Lubbock and also San Angelo. T&P had overnight service between DFW and El Paso and DFW and New Orleans. The Q had overnight between DFW and Amarillo, TZ southbound and #8 northbound. There were also day trains on most of those routes. By the mid 60's most of this was gone and by Amtrak almost all. Texas had a good highway system and the precursor to SWA, Trans-Texas Airlines and it was easy to discontinue intrastate trains in Texas as all the Railroads had to do was show the trains were losing money. A good example was the Houston-Austin train off petition. All these people showed up to testify as to how important the trains were to the economy, etc. The SP lawyer, when his turn came, just asked one question.........how many of you took the train to get here. No hands went up and the trains were discontinued

Some of those routes are definately too short for overnight trains. They had to be really slow. I guess Amtrak did make service more efficient than what they used to be.

 

[Anderson]

Some of those services probably used set-out cars at one end or the other, or allowed pre-departure or post-arrival occupation of the car.

 

[George Harris]

A big reason why Amtrak ridership can't be higher is equipment shortages, especially on LD routes. These shortages are being solve at a snail's pace, so Amtrak can't take advantage of the booming dislike of cars and planes.

Were the Owl and Border Limited overnight trains? I assueme all the other were day trains except the SL, Argonaut, and the many LDs from Union Station.

Yes, those were overnight. There was also overnight service between Houston and Austin, Houston and Shreveport, Houston and New Orleans(MP&SP), Houston and Brownsville on the MP in addition to the Border Ltd and on the MP & ATSF between Houston and Fort Worth. The Santa Fe California Special was overnight between Houston and Lubbock & DFW and Lubbock and also San Angelo. T&P had overnight service between DFW and El Paso and DFW and New Orleans. The Q had overnight between DFW and Amarillo, TZ southbound and #8 northbound. There were also day trains on most of those routes. By the mid 60's most of this was gone and by Amtrak almost all.

Some of those routes are definately too short for overnight trains. They had to be really slow. I guess Amtrak did make service more efficient than what they used to be.

Yes, they were really slow. They were primarily mail trains, but up until somewhere in the 1950's, they all carried a sleeper, which commonly could be occupied from some time before departure until some time after arrival. The clientelle was primariy the businessman who wanted a full day in the target city. There would also be quite a few coach passengers that had to be in the target city it time to go to work.

 

[henryj]

These trains were used by traveling business people as a mobil hotel. An example from the 1941 Official Guide for the Houston-

dallas Owl states "Open for occupancy 9:30pm - occupancy at Dallas until 8:15 am" This same note appears for most all the overnight trains that left at a later time and arrived early at their destination and carried a sleeper. These type trains as noted were primarily mail trains and did not carry a diner. Most destination stations had food service in the station. Now days these train are no longer needed as the mail is going by truck and the business man flys to his destination in an hour and stays at a nice hotel.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

And the patterns George describes existed all over the country. Nothing unusual about that. For better or for worse it can definately be said that there was a lot more variety back then. You had the Super Chief, you had multi stop locals and everything in between.

 

[user 1215]

I live in a small town in Georgia. My mother used to tell me about when she could catch a passenger train in town and go to Atllanta to shop at Rich's and Davison's (now Macy's), and then ride back the same day. I can't even imagine that!

This is the result of 100 years of outsized road subsidies -- subsidizing the competition to trains, while leaving trains to fend for themselves.

There were some early federal road subsidies in the 1900s and 1910s, but they started in earnest in 1925 with the "US Highway" system subsidies, which were mostly out of general fund money (not gas tax). Trains nevertheless recovered ridership during the Depression (despite cheap oil, many people didn't have enough money to drive), and recovered yet more ridership during rationing in World War II. The end of rationing coincided with an economic boom *and* with the conversion of the aircraft factories back into auto factories, and shortly after that, the Interstate System started pouring even *more* money into roads -- and oil was still cheap.

Meanwhile, trains were actually *paying taxes* which were effectively being used to build these roads -- a federal ticket tax, local property taxes at higher rates than anyone else (while roads were tax-free), etc. This disastrous situation, with the deck stacked extremely heavily in favor of autos and against trains, continued until the 1970s. The collapse of Penn Central and then the oil crises finally got people in power paying some attention to what they had wrought. The deck is still stacked against trains, but not quite as badly as during the 1950s.

I am thankful that there are roads that allow me to get from any point to any point without having to rely on anyone else to get me there, and to be able to do so on my own timetable. I am thankful that I have airlines that can wisk me from Georgia to California in hours. I'm thankful for the internet and smartphones. I'm thankful for the freedom of choice.
There is a need for a national passenger train network - there's no doubt about that. But the sheer matter regarding the size of our nation and the density of the population that lives in it makes it less desireable over the longest distances.

When Japan privatized their commuter rail system into 7 different companies, each performed better. The resulting companies operate at a profit, even paying off some of the debt carried by the government run system. And they are turning out new trainsets constantly, updating stations and technology, increasing revenues by selling to the power companies excess electricity that they generate for their own trains.

We have this mentality in the US that public transportation is a necessity for the elderly and the disabled. And that's how we operate public transit in the less dense of US cities. Not based on market supply and demand.