Amtrak in Florida

[west point]

As stated elsewhere my big worry is an extended time service cut by weather. In the unlikely event of a CAT 5 hurricane hitting just below Jacksonville all rail service to middle and southern Florida would be terminated. It took CSX 6 months to get the Gulf coast line back to reasonable service from Katrina. Depending on bridge damages how long is anyone's guess.

The 3 alternate routes to middle Florida have long been abandoned by NS & CSX or predecessors.

Then as well road traffic could be limited to just I-75.

 

[jis]

As stated elsewhere my big worry is an extended time service cut by weather. In the unlikely event of a CAT 5 hurricane hitting just below Jacksonville all rail service to middle and southern Florida would be terminated. It took CSX 6 months to get the Gulf coast line back to reasonable service from Katrina. Depending on bridge damages how long is anyone's guess.

The 3 alternate routes to middle Florida have long been abandoned by NS & CSX or predecessors.

Then as well road traffic could be limited to just I-75.

The experience from the Category 5 landfall at Sanibel Island last year seems not to support your projections.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The experience from the Category 5 landfall at Sanibel Island last year seems not to support your projections.

This from a Florida Coastal Resident!

 

[Seaboarder3023]

All show the route as Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville-Daytona-Orlando-Miami (same as FRA SE Regional study).

Obviously the map is zoomed out so it's hard to tell, but the route wouldn't go via Daytona, as that would require a connection between the FEC and the CSX A-Line

 

[jis]

Obviously the map is zoomed out so it's hard to tell, but the route wouldn't go via Daytona, as that would require a connection between the FEC and the CSX A-Line

Right. No Daytona.

 

[railiner]

Right. No Daytona.

A bit off topic perhaps, but if Brightline has no desire to run trains to Jacksonville, would the FEC allow Amtrak to use its line from Jacksonville to either Miami directly, or to Orlando and then back on its 'own' current route?

 

[jis]

A bit off topic perhaps, but if Brightline has no desire to run trains to Jacksonville, would the FEC allow Amtrak to use its line from Jacksonville to either Miami directly, or to Orlando and then back on its 'own' current route?

Brightline's vision in Florida after Tampa is Jacksonville.

It is not possible to get from Jacksonville to Orlando on Brightline/FECR without a change of direction of movement at Cocoa. I don't think that will happen on an Amtrak anything until Amtrak gets dual ended equipment.

Once you get to Orlando, there is no easy way to get back to SunRail/Amtrak without using an industrial siding at present. After the extension to Tampa is built it might become a possibility to get onto SunRail facing the right way. But it would miss the Orlando Amtrak downtown station.

In general I think it is highly unlikely that this will come to pass in my lifetime, if ever. It is a higher probability in my opinion that an Amtrak train whether it ve from Chicago or New York or Atlanta, would find its way to MIC in Miami via FECR between JAX and Miami. That only requires the construction of the connector between FECR and Trirail on the Southeast quadrant at Iris, and get an agreement with the Florida Dispatching Company for dispatching and FECR for station development on the route. The last bit would be required either way of course.

 

[Eric S]

Brightline's vision in Florida after Tampa is Jacksonville.

It is not possible to get from Jacksonville to Orlando on Brightline/FECR without a change of direction of movement at Cocoa. I don't think that will happen on an Amtrak anything until Amtrak gets dual ended equipment.

Once you get to Orlando, there is no easy way to get back to SunRail/Amtrak without using an industrial siding at present. After the extension to Tampa is built it might become a possibility to get onto SunRail facing the right way. But it would miss the Orlando Amtrak downtown station.

In general I think it is highly unlikely that this will come to pass in my lifetime, if ever. It is a higher probability in my opinion that an Amtrak train whether it ve from Chicago or New York or Atlanta, would find its way to MIC in Miami via FECR between JAX and Miami. That only requires the construction of the connector between FECR and Trirail on the Southeast quadrant at Iris, and get an agreement with the Florida Dispatching Company for dispatching and FECR for station development on the route. The last bit would be required either way of course.

Was the Northwood Connector ever built? (I think that's the name of it, north of the West Palm Beach station.) Could that be used for a theoretical future Amtrak service using the FEC between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach and Tri-Rail south to Miami?

 

[jis]

Was the Northwood Connector ever built? (I think that's the name of it, north of the West Palm Beach station.) Could that be used for a theoretical future Amtrak service using the FEC between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach and Tri-Rail south to Miami?

Yes, indeed. Amtrak could cross over the Northwood Crossover, which has been built for both directions. Somehow I blanked out about it.

Trirail is slated to use it for extending their service from the inland line (i.e. not FECR) to Jupiter North of West Palm Beach.

 

[Palmland]

That only requires the construction of the connector between FECR and Trirail on the Southeast quadrant at Iris, and get an agreement with the Florida Dispatching Company for dispatching and FECR for station development on the route. The last bit would be required either way of course.

I had not heard of the Iris connection and a search turned up this fascinating document from Florida DOT published in December 2022. It's encouraging that FDOT has their hand in all these projects but I wonder how many will be reality anytime soon. Sort of like a candy store shopping list but a lot of new information for me.

 

[jis]

Obviously the map is zoomed out so it's hard to tell, but the route wouldn't go via Daytona, as that would require a connection between the FEC and the CSX A-Line

A further clarification.... The FRA map indeed does specifically show the route to be via Daytona, but it also says in the not so well written introductory overview section that it is a conceptual framework to address city pair demand projections. So it is possible that there are some cases where there is no practical route for the specific location shown but there are alternate nearby locations that can be served. For Daytona that would be somewhere like Deland with Thruway to Daytona.

I had not heard of the Iris connection and a search turned up this fascinating document from Florida DOT published in December 2022. It's encouraging that FDOT has their hand in all these projects but I wonder how many will be reality anytime soon. Sort of like a candy store shopping list but a lot of new information for me.

That is a great find. I knew such a thing existed but had not found it yet.

 

[Roomette11]

Right. No Daytona.

Seems to me the best way to make more Florida destinations available to LD passengers is to go back to splitting trains in JAX. One piece runs down the FEC to WPB, thence the TriRail route to Miami including the connector. The other piece runs down the A line to Orlando and Tampa (and on to St. Pete or Sarasota, if you like.)

No more zig-zagging Silver Star wandering around the state — which was a best-we-can-do attempt at intra-state service. Not a terrible idea at the time, but Brightline will soon do a much better job of this intrastate service.

The goal should be to do this for every Florida train regardless of whether the train originated in New York, Chicago, or (dare to dream) Texas. If the “Jacksonville shuffle” becomes the norm, it is reasonable to expect the team to learn to do it well (I.e. quickly). Practice makes perfect. There is historical precedent for this.

There are still two Amtrak trains that are split/combined every day. Is it crazy to think it could (and should) be done more?

 

[jis]

The goal should be to do this for every Florida train regardless of whether the train originated in New York, Chicago, or (dare to dream) Texas. If the “Jacksonville shuffle” becomes the norm, it is reasonable to expect the team to learn to do it well (I.e. quickly). Practice makes perfect. There is historical precedent for this.

This is not part of the plan that Florida DOT and Amtrak have put together for the next many years.

I don't think Amtrak will ever be extended beyond Tampa Union Station to anywhere. The line to St. Pete is so slow that a bus can almost make two round trips by the time the train reaches St. Pete from Tampa. Why would anyone waste that much time and resources on that except for the sake of nostalgia is beyond me.

Also, I don't think Tampa will ever become a terminal station with the ability to turn an LD train again either. All the infrastructure needed for such have been fully removed in the latest cleanup of the Amtrak owned station area. There really are more important things to spend money on in Florida bringing rail service to completely unserved areas rather than waste money on small incremental of dubious distinction around Tampa. Eventually if the FDOT oplans materialize for Commuter service around Tampa, that would be a better way to take care of some of the suburban service issues, instead of trying to shoehorn LD trains into serving that purpose.

FDOT is currently working with Amtrak in a low key effort to explore the addition of two to three per day service using appropriate equipment for regional service on the routes currently served by Amtrak - JAX - Orlando - Tampa, Tampa - Miami and Orlando - Miami. Absent addition of service from Chicago or New Orleans they don't seem to visualize additional service from the Northeast, which as fr as planning goes, also jibes with the lack of slots for such in the Virginia plans.

 

[cirdan]

It is not possible to get from Jacksonville to Orlando on Brightline/FECR without a change of direction of movement at Cocoa. I don't think that will happen on an Amtrak anything until Amtrak gets dual ended equipment.

Possibly if and when Brightline does go to Jacksonville, it would not be unreasonable to extend the junction at Cocoa to a wye to be able to shave 5 to 10 minutes off the Jacksonville to Orlando schedule.

 

[jis]

Possibly if and when Brightline does go to Jacksonville, it would not be unreasonable to extend the junction at Cocoa to a wye to be able to shave 5 to 10 minutes off the Jacksonville to Orlando schedule.

There is space to do this but those using that leg of the Wye will miss the Coco station, which would probably be fine. However since the trains are easily reversible, this would probably be a relatively low priority nicety. I any case this is not part of Amtrak's, FDOT's or Brightline's published plans yet.

 

[Seaboarder3023]

Also, I don't think Tampa will ever become a terminal station with the ability to turn an LD train again either. All the infrastructure needed for such have been fully removed in the latest cleanup of the Amtrak owned station area. There really are more important things to spend money on in Florida bringing rail service to completely unserved areas rather than waste money on small incremental of dubious distinction around Tampa. Eventually if the FDOT plans materialize for Commuter service around Tampa, that would be a better way to take care of some of the suburban service issues, instead of trying to shoehorn LD trains into serving that purpose.

Well, seeing how the "infrastructure" that was removed was literally just a car wash, I don't think it would be exuberantly expensive to put one back. Furthermore, there's a small 7 track yard just to the south of TUS that CSX uses to serve only one customer. I don't think it would be impossible to work out an agreement where Amtrak gets 2-3 of those for uses as a rip track/protect equipment storage, as well as a new car wash.

Tampa was the second-busiest station in Florida (excluding Sanford) in FY19, just behind Orlando. If anything, Amtrak should be trying to serve Tampa with more LD service, not less. I believe Amtrak should try to reestablish its original network in Florida (Tallahassee + P&A Subs and the S-Line) before moving on to serve new areas like the FEC and the SW Coast.

 

[jis]

Tampa was the second-busiest station in Florida (excluding Sanford) in FY19, just behind Orlando. If anything, Amtrak should be trying to serve Tampa with more LD service, not less. I believe Amtrak should try to reestablish its original network in Florida (Tallahassee + P&A Subs and the S-Line) before moving on to serve new areas like the FEC and the SW Coast.

I agree Tampa should continue to be served by LD trains even after Brightline start serving Tampa. That can be done without setting up shop in Tampa. I also agree that Amtrak should first do a better job of the places it is serving now before moving onto other areas.

In any case the Gulf Coast Service or FEC in and of itself, unless done as an extension of some LD service is going to be entirely FDOT's bailiwick, as is JAX - Orlando - Tampa - Miami. So in the unlikely event that FDOT decides to set something up in the way of intra-Florida service, that may be contracted to Amtrak or to someone else. It is too early to tell what might come to pass.

All that is most certain at present is Brightline will happen to Tampa and Amtrak will continue the LD service that it has in place. There is significant probability that FDOT using Corridor ID instigated funds will institute additional intrastate service, most likely using Amtrak as the operator, and that the Southern Rail Commission will do the same with NOL - MOB - JAX - ORL service again using Amtrak as the operator. And of course just about anyday now Amtrak will finally move to MIC in Miami Beyond that is all speculation and fantasy (well actually some of the above also seems fantasy on most days though)

 

[railiner]

Seems to me the best way to make more Florida destinations available to LD passengers is to go back to splitting trains in JAX. One piece runs down the FEC to WPB, thence the TriRail route to Miami including the connector. The other piece runs down the A line to Orlando and Tampa (and on to St. Pete or Sarasota, if you like.)

No more zig-zagging Silver Star wandering around the state — which was a best-we-can-do attempt at intra-state service. Not a terrible idea at the time, but Brightline will soon do a much better job of this intrastate service.

The goal should be to do this for every Florida train regardless of whether the train originated in New York, Chicago, or (dare to dream) Texas. If the “Jacksonville shuffle” becomes the norm, it is reasonable to expect the team to learn to do it well (I.e. quickly). Practice makes perfect. There is historical precedent for this.

There are still two Amtrak trains that are split/combined every day. Is it crazy to think it could (and should) be done more?

What would your proposal do for the good folks at Sebring and Okeechobee?

 

[west point]

Tampa boards many more passenger to / from south Florida than ATL does on the Crescent. Then add in Tampa North to that number. Star to Tampa is well worth the detour.
As well Tampa to Ft Myers probably with DMUs. Or maybe a Star connection at Lakeland to Ft Meyers. Unfortunately, Tampa - Sarasota now is essentially a dead end at Sarasota from Tampa. That southern west coast area has exploded in population since ACL / SAL service ended. On to Naples a stretch too far even in foreseeable future. It is unfortunate that the direct tracks of SAL and ACL from Sarasota to their lines to Ft Myers are abandoned. If restoration possible would probably be at least 20 - 30 years in future to restore one route.

 

[jis]

As far as I can tell there are two existing opportunities on the Florida West Coast, with some significant track improvement and station building involved, but using non abandoned routes:

1. Tampa - Sarasota - Venice
2. Lakeland - Bone Valley - Punta Gorda - Fort Meyers

Both are Florida's bailiwick, not Amtrak's. The latter finds a mention but is not addressed in particular in the FRA exercise, naturally since it is not an LD opportunity, and Amtrak ConnectUS does not cover it either AFAIR.

Both may be candidates for NJT RiverLINE like operation using something like Stadler GTWs (Tier III compliant so operable mixed with freight) with relatively low cost stations, rather than trundling two cars pulled by a heavy diesel which we in America love so much.

If such services existed they would connect at Tampa and Lakeland respectively.

 

[cirdan]

There is space to do this but those using that leg of the Wye will miss the Coco station, which would probably be fine. However since the trains are easily reversible, this would probably be a relatively low priority nicety. I any case this is not part of Amtrak's, FDOT's or Brightline's published plans yet.

Indeed.

It seems to me the entire Jacksonville extension is rather vague and non committal at the moment. Maybe you know more than I do, but AFAIK Brightline have not announced any details at all. AFAIK we don't even know what intermediate stations there will be, or anticipated timings, or when the line is expected to open, or the sources of funding, or anything else like that. Even the proposed Jacksonville commuter train manages to avoid discussing Brightline connectivity and impact on its website - which I would have thought would be important if they are to share ROW and possibly even stations.

It all creates the impression that, despite railfan-generated excitement, this project, if it will happen at all, is more in the nice-to-have category and still quite a few years away. Speculating what effect it may have on Amtrak routings is thus entirely premature.

 

[cirdan]

Well, seeing how the "infrastructure" that was removed was literally just a car wash, I don't think it would be exuberantly expensive to put one back. Furthermore, there's a small 7 track yard just to the south of TUS that CSX uses to serve only one customer. I don't think it would be impossible to work out an agreement where Amtrak gets 2-3 of those for uses as a rip track/protect equipment storage, as well as a new car wash.

I also think that in the interests of serving downtown and also of providing a single rail hub, which would be interesting if further Amtrak or local services make it to Tampa, that it would make sense for Brightline to run into TUS rather than some peripheral location.

 

[jis]

Indeed.

It seems to me the entire Jacksonville extension is rather vague and non committal at the moment. Maybe you know more than I do, but AFAIK Brightline have not announced any details at all. AFAIK we don't even know what intermediate stations there will be, or anticipated timings, or when the line is expected to open, or the sources of funding, or anything else like that. Even the proposed Jacksonville commuter train manages to avoid discussing Brightline connectivity and impact on its website - which I would have thought would be important if they are to share ROW and possibly even stations.

It all creates the impression that, despite railfan-generated excitement, this project, if it will happen at all, is more in the nice-to-have category and still quite a few years away. Speculating what effect it may have on Amtrak routings is thus entirely premature.

That is what I have been trying to hint at. Amtrak plans should proceed without assuming much about Brightline. In any case Amtrak would still be serving many places that Brightline does not plan to serve. Having both would be a fine thing to have.

What is known about the North of Cocoa activities of Brightline is they has acquired several necessary permits and acquired additional land at strategic locations, but most of it can be viewed as for supporting the First Coast Commuter service between Jacksonville and St. Augustine. It is almost certain that when (if) Brightline extends service to Jacksonville the two places that would definitely be served in addition to Jacksonville would be Daytona and St. Augustine.

BTW, did you know that there is a company (subsidiary of Brightline) named AAF Jacksonville Segment LLC, which is the entity that owns all assets related to potential future extension to Jacksonville already? So this is not just talk.

I also think that in the interests of serving downtown and also of providing a single rail hub, which would be interesting if further Amtrak or local services make it to Tampa, that it would make sense for Brightline to run into TUS rather than some peripheral location.

The location for the Tampa Brightline station is pretty well known as things stand. It is not at any peripheral location. It is a short walk from TUS towards Ybor City. It will be an elevated structure in order to avoid the numerous grade crossing that would be necessary if it were to be built at grade.

 

[Roomette11]

What would your proposal do for the good folks at Sebring and Okeechobee?

It would leave them out, for sure. It also has no provision for Fort Myers/Naples or Gainesville — which seem like gaps, too.

I wouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good, though. Every good plan (whether or not mine qualifies ) should be considered a good start. And every operating system should always look to improve. It’s never really “done” and that’s ok.

Local projects of different sorts can be added to what Amtrak LD trains do (getting people to FL) and probably do a better job of the fanning out to more of the state.

 

[BlackDiamond]

trundling two cars pulled by a heavy diesel which we in America love so much.

Even better 2 cars with a heavy diesel at each end because Amtrak doesn't have enough cab cars