Amtrak is finally coming to Scranton!

[BlackDiamond]

Amtrak has released schedule options. Personally I prefer Option D, but B is pretty good to. The 2028 start date is a kick in the nuts though.

https://www.poconorecord.com/story/...amtrak-pa-nj-scranton-lackawanna/70040734007/

Given the glacial pace of most passenger rail restoration projects even this might turn out to be optimistic

 

[jis]

Given the glacial pace of most passenger rail restoration projects even this might turn out to be optimistic

We will get a better feel for a possible start timeframe when actual construction contracts are signed. Remember and significant a critical portion of the route at present does not have any track in place, only a decaying right of way with some significant viaducts (Paulin's Kill and Delaware) to repair.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Four years is actually not bad if they have a lot of construction to do. I don't know where they are in the bidding process, but you'll need drawings and design and that has to be bid, approved and designed first (architects & engineers - and we are busy these days) before any actual construction is bid out...

But exciting none the less.

 

[fdaley]

It is very exciting to see this project looking like it will actually happen after 40-plus years of talk and studies. I love the 2:50 travel time from Scranton to New York, which would be about 20 minutes faster than the best historical schedules -- and those wound up only at Hoboken. I also love the goal of 110 mph running along the NJ cutoff, which is a wonderfully straight stretch that was an engineering marvel in its day.

But if we're going to spend the money to achieve all of that, I think it would make more sense to get a third train set and build the second layover track in Scranton, allowing for more than three round trips per day. Option D may be the most workable startup schedule, but another frequency or two would make the service a lot more useful and versatile. And someone is going to need to lean on NJT to adjust its commuter schedules to accommodate this service. In particular, having no NYC departure between 3 and 8 p.m. seems like a huge gap that will constrain ridership. There also will need to be more than one departure from Scranton before noon, and preferably more than one arrival at NYP before noon.

And definitely, as others have said, the Scranton trains should all be running via the Morristown route.

 

[jis]

Maybe NJT should take this opportunity to apply for federal funding for double tracking Denville to MSU , thought that won;t solve the problem of getting stuck behind pokey MSU locals between MSU and Newark Broad St./Roseville.

 

[Amtrak25]

Amtrak wants to go from the frying pan to the fryer in avoiding NJT rush hour congestion. They can bypass a lot of it with the center track east of Millburn. As for the Boonton line east of MSU, that is 10 stations in 11 miles with NJT's heavy, multi-level slug trains and no way to get around them.

People in Pennsylvania want to go to Morristown and possibly Summit, but nobody from there wants to go to downtown Montclair. Maybe some university students on Monday morning eastbound and Friday evenings westbound, but that is a stretch.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

It would be nice to take the train to the rail museum in Scranton, it would be nicer to be able to go o from there to Buffalo by way of Binghamton, etc. on the route of the Phoebe Snow.

 

[fdaley]

Amtrak wants to go from the frying pan to the fryer in avoiding NJT rush hour congestion. They can bypass a lot of it with the center track east of Millburn. As for the Boonton line east of MSU, that is 10 stations in 11 miles with NJT's heavy, multi-level slug trains and no way to get around them.

People in Pennsylvania want to go to Morristown and possibly Summit, but nobody from there wants to go to downtown Montclair. Maybe some university students on Monday morning eastbound and Friday evenings westbound, but that is a stretch.

And even if it were clear of all traffic, the Boonton route just seems slow, even if it is a couple of miles shorter. It's an amalgam of what were originally secondary routes and branch lines, some of which weren't particularly well laid out. Plus as you say, the Morristown line has more population and employment centers that would more logically be origins/destinations for traffic to and from PA, and it has much more frequent local service that could connect to the through trains.

 

[John Bobinyec]

The amalgam is the DL&W from Denville to Mountain View and then the Erie Greenwood Lake from there down to Upper Montclair. We used to call the latter part the "Burma Road" because of the hills and curves. The connection between the two at Mountain View is a nasty curve as well.

jb

 

[west point]

Posters here forget that it is not easy restarting service on even a couple years unused line. It is all about vegetation. The tree roots on this line means that soil and ballast will have to be removed, cleaned, fabric laid, and only good soil returned/ Also trees that are too close to future trains removed.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Also, there's the little matter of the Roseville Tunnel, west of Port Morris. It's crumbling and needs to be rebuilt. It can't be daylighted (easily) because the track sits on an anticline.

jb

 

[MARC Rider]

Also, there's the little matter of the Roseville Tunnel, west of Port Morris. It's crumbling and needs to be rebuilt. It can't be daylighted (easily) because the track sits on an anticline.

jb

I didn't know that you can't daylight a tunnel that runs through an anticline. Why is that so?

 

[Amtrak25]

This all assumes NJT will get their Andover portion done, for which they have been dragging their feet for 15 years. West of there to Pennsylvania, bringing a 18 or 20 mile railroad bed back from the dead after 40 years is not easy, and there's the rehab of the two concrete viaducts, one of which spans I-80. The DL&W built concrete things to last 200 years, but still need major work.

We do not know if NJ Sierra Club (has new leadership now) will continue opposing it, have called it "rail sprawl", and advises all those NYC-transplants in East Stroudsburg should move to West Orange. There have been Blairstown NIMBYs. Governor Murphy bends over backwards to NIMBYs and Trail lobbyists (so-called envronmentalists) who are also political operatives, who do not share, like they have on the abandoned Boonton portion across Essex County. One of those operatives lives in Upper Montclair.

 

[John Bobinyec]

I didn't know that you can't daylight a tunnel that runs through an anticline. Why is that so?

In the youtube videos about "The Cutoff", the history of the construction is explained. The goal was to not have any tunnels at all, but the geologists of the time convinced management that the better way was to tunnel through it rather than to try and remove it. Recently, NJT is considering extending the cutoff to Andover and they are faced with what to do with Roseville Tunnel. Reports are that they are going to shore it up.

I'm not a geologist nor do I play one on TV. I think my qualification of "easily" is the key word here. Perhaps because of the nature of what would need to be removed and perhaps then reinforced, it would be more economical to just fix the tunnel.

jb

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'm not sure mixing with NJT is the best idea. especially on this route. I know NS was giving the train a hard way to go, but the M&E has too much traffic to deal with if the Amtrak misses its slot. Heck, it's hard to deal with their traffic on the NEC, where you have 4 to 6 tracks.

 

[Amtrak25]

I'm not sure mixing with NJT is the best idea. especially on this route. I know NS was giving the train a hard way to go, but the M&E has too much traffic to deal with if the Amtrak misses its slot. Heck, it's hard to deal with their traffic on the NEC, where you have 4 to 6 tracks.

There is no alternative to NJT east of Andover and Dover, whether it goes M&E or Boonton. There is no NS.

The M&E had a 3rd exprress track east of Millburn.
The Boonton is partial single track, some nasty curves as it passes form the original Boonton Line to the former DL&W Montclair Branch, and onto the M&E west of Newark. The Montclair/Boonton line also has a heavy rush hour with trains making 10 stops in 11 miles.

Amtrak runs on the MN Hudson Line, the New Havnen Line, so they can run on the NJT M&E line. All have slot issues with commuter trains.

 

[John Bobinyec]

I'm not sure mixing with NJT is the best idea. especially on this route. I know NS was giving the train a hard way to go, but the M&E has too much traffic to deal with if the Amtrak misses its slot. Heck, it's hard to deal with their traffic on the NEC, where you have 4 to 6 tracks.

Back when the Lake Cities Express and the Phoebe Snow ran, they ran down the M&E with no trouble, and arguably, there were more trains running then than there are now. And furthermore, they ran east from points far west of Scranton, whereas the proposed service is starting and terminating in Scranton. There's less chance now of Amtrak "missing its slot" than there was then, at least due to freight train interference.

jb

 

[fdaley]

I'm not sure mixing with NJT is the best idea. especially on this route. I know NS was giving the train a hard way to go, but the M&E has too much traffic to deal with if the Amtrak misses its slot. Heck, it's hard to deal with their traffic on the NEC, where you have 4 to 6 tracks.

Other than the M&E and Montclair-Boonton lines, I'm not aware of any other way for the Scranton trains to cover the last 40 miles into New York without adding a lot of time and/or cost to a project that's already pretty expensive. The M&E has a lot more traffic than the MoBo, but it also has a lot more capacity -- double track the whole way, plus a third track for a significant portion. Plus it serves more places that are likely to be destinations for riders from PA.

And in terms of traffic density, there is much more on the last few miles through Secaucus and into Penn Station. If Amtrak can squeeze in a few extra trains there, NJT should be able to figure out how to do it on the M&E.

 

[Thirdrail7]

My apologies. I believe I'm thinking of Allentown, which required NS.

 

[jis]

My apologies. I believe I'm thinking of Allentown, which required NS.

They’d have to do significant gymnastics to get onto M&E from Allentown. It can be done, but will involve a very slow slog up the Washington Secondary.

 

[dlagrua]

Extending NJT to Scranton has been in the works for many years but work has been moving at a snails pace. IIRC they are about 12 miles to the viaduct. The good news is that the Lackawanna cutoff line was designed without any grade crossings. Its just a matter of laying new track on the long abandoned roadbed, repairing two tunnels and refurbishing the huge concrete Paulinskill viaduct (bridge) that is still standing. Once they reach PA the tracks are still in reasonable shape to Scranton. As for Allentown service that would have to be an extension of the NJT ( former CNJ) Somerville line. Thats doable but the first step would be restoring service to Phillipsburg. Once they cross the river to Easton PA the tracks to Allentown are still in good shape and being used by NS. .

 

[west point]

Its just a matter of laying new track on the long abandoned roadbed,

No, it is not. Just think of all the vegetation under the roadbed. That will have to be stripped to below any roots, fabric installed and proper sub grade dirt installed. That may mean 10 feet either side of the track. + any vegetation that might fall on tracks later.
do not forget that original ballast might be unusable especially cinders.

 

[Amtrak25]

I hope the lead agency is not NJT since it is an Amtrak project and would be mostly federally funded. I suppose NJ-DOT has title to the Cut-off beyond Andover, but not 100% sure.

 

[Crowbar_k]

It is very exciting to see this project looking like it will actually happen after 40-plus years of talk and studies. I love the 2:50 travel time from Scranton to New York, which would be about 20 minutes faster than the best historical schedules -- and those wound up only at Hoboken. I also love the goal of 110 mph running along the NJ cutoff, which is a wonderfully straight stretch that was an engineering marvel in its day.

But if we're going to spend the money to achieve all of that, I think it would make more sense to get a third train set and build the second layover track in Scranton, allowing for more than three round trips per day. Option D may be the most workable startup schedule, but another frequency or two would make the service a lot more useful and versatile. And someone is going to need to lean on NJT to adjust its commuter schedules to accommodate this service. In particular, having no NYC departure between 3 and 8 p.m. seems like a huge gap that will constrain ridership. There also will need to be more than one departure from Scranton before noon, and preferably more than one arrival at NYP before noon.

And definitely, as others have said, the Scranton trains should all be running via the Morristown route.

I could be wrong, but isn't the Lackawanna Cutoff grade separated? I feel like they could easily run trains on there at 125 mph easily.

 

[fdaley]

I could be wrong, but isn't the Lackawanna Cutoff grade separated? I feel like they could easily run trains on there at 125 mph easily.

It was built without a single grade crossing, though I'm not sure if any might have been created in the nearly 40 years since the track was removed. A lot of the line is on high fill far above the local roads, but there are a few places, such as around the Blairstown station, where roads were more at its level and went over it on bridges. Perhaps one or two of those bridges were removed and converted to at-grade crossings? As for 125 mph vs. 110, I don't know exactly what would be required. From Andover to the Delaware River, it's a remarkably straight route, and the curvature east of there is very gradual.