Amtrak Long Distance Food

[cu29640]

So Amtrak will be testing the pre prepared meals on Eastern Trains such as Auto Train and Crescent. I love the dining car but I also get this. I recent rode the Zephyr from Emeryville to Reno and had both lunch and dinner in the dining car. The food was excellent. The seating and service was inneficient. They have such few narrowly defined reservation slots that many were angry they couldn't eat dinner on the dining car. Why not keep it open longer? I also noticed at times they were only filling half the dining car. The service crew was excellent. So on to the pre-prepped meals. If they are closing the dining car on the Crescent et al why not offer more pre-made meal options from the vendor (Sky Chef) and allow coach to purchase these as well...free to first class. A 16 hr train trip with only the lounge car as a source of food is bad. Also I am not a fan of people bringing pick nicks onto the train which dirties up the cars and smell. Have at seat meal service...come through take orders and bring it back.

 

[zephyr17]

The narrow reservations window and not using the whole car are the result of destaffing the dining cars in a program put in place about 5 years ago. They don't have enough waiters to operate the whole car. Most of the time now you have an LSA plus one or two waiters. If I recall correctly when fully staffed it was at least 6 waiters, 3 for each side, plus the LSA. Someone may recall the precise number for a fully staffed Superliner diner.

The diners have been under attack for a long time.

 

[TWA904]

The narrow reservations window and not using the whole car are the result of destaffing the dining cars in a program put in place about 5 years ago. They don't have enough waiters to operate the whole car. Most of the time now you have an LSA plus one or two waiters. If I recall correctly when fully staffed it was at least 6 waiters, 3 for each side, plus the LSA. Someone may recall the precise number for a fully staffed Superliner diner.

The diners have been under attack for a long time.

Folks don't stop eating just because it's late night. The Diners and cafe cars should be open for service 24 hours a day.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Folks don't stop eating just because it's late night. The Diners and cafe cars should be open for service 24 hours a day.

And when does the skeleton crew sleep?

 

[TWA904]

And when does the skeleton crew sleep?

Staff it with a skeleton crew overnight, then fully staff it during the day. That's my idea anyway. Is it really true they even start running out of food after the first sitting on long distance trains.

 

[zephyr17]

Staff it with a skeleton crew overnight, then fully staff it during the day. That's my idea anyway. Is it really true they even start running out of food after the first sitting on long distance trains.

Certain items, sometimes. It doesn't seem quite as bad as it was a few years ago when they first outsourced commissary service. Then they ran out of things right and left.

Still seems to apply to desserts, though. If there is a dessert you have your eye on, order it at your first lunch or dinner. Chances are they will run out.

 

[jimmrl]

A few weeks ago on the West bound Sunset Limited they used both sides of the diner. One person per side, it worked pretty well, no crowding, no problems. The East bound coming back only used one side and the crew was always in each others way and the seating is limited.

So at least one crew is using both sides.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Was the LSA on the Sunset an slim older lady? I wish I remembered her name but that was one of the best LSA's ever when I rode the Sunset a couple years ago.

 

[jimmrl]

Was the LSA on the Sunset an slim older lady? I wish I remembered her name but that was one of the best LSA's ever when I rode the Sunset a couple years ago.

Yes it was, she was great.

 

[TWA904]

Why not contract with a restaurant chain like Applebee's, Chili's or Ruby Tuesday.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Why not contract with a restaurant chain like Applebee's, Chili's or Ruby Tuesday.

What does that do?

 

[Bob Dylan]

What does that do?

Amtrak food in the Full Service Diners is better than any of the stuff those Fast Food Chains sling!! (the Boxed stuff is another story!!)

 

[ehbowen]

You're not going to reduce costs by bringing a third party into the arrangement. Now it may seem as if you're reducing costs if the third party screws over your employees and you gain (some of) the benefit, but if you want to screw your employees you might as well do it yourself.

Third-party management makes sense only if the aim is to provide superior service from managers with expertise you don't have...such as with the long-term ATSF partnership with Fred Harvey. It didn't cut costs...it increased them! The railroad agreed to transport Fred Harvey's foodstuffs and supplies for, essentially, free! But the management and the quality of product and service was so superior that it attracted customers and built a reputation which still gives the organization a halo to this day. As a cost-cutting strategy, though, it was a non-starter.

 

[Anthony V]

Folks don't stop eating just because it's late night. The Diners and cafe cars should be open for service 24 hours a day.

That service model worked very well on the SL back in the 1990's, so much that it eliminated dining car losses. Amtrak needs to bring this service model back and expand it to all LD trains. This would allow them to meet the "no F&B losses mandate" while enhancing dining service across the national network.

 

[MARC Rider]

You're not going to reduce costs by bringing a third party into the arrangement. Now it may seem as if you're reducing costs if the third party screws over your employees and you gain (some of) the benefit, but if you want to screw your employees you might as well do it yourself.

Third-party management makes sense only if the aim is to provide superior service from managers with expertise you don't have...such as with the long-term ATSF partnership with Fred Harvey. It didn't cut costs...it increased them! The railroad agreed to transport Fred Harvey's foodstuffs and supplies for, essentially, free! But the management and the quality of product and service was so superior that it attracted customers and built a reputation which still gives the organization a halo to this day. As a cost-cutting strategy, though, it was a non-starter.

The marginal increased costs of transporting food and other supplies (and the food service workers) probably isn't that much in the big scheme of things. Did ATSF purchase, and maintain the dining cars? If so, did they charge Fred Harvey rent for use of the dining cars? What other costs are involved in providing food and beverage service? I hope Amtrak is allocating a portion of, say, NEC catenary maintenance to LD food and beverage costs. Anyway, all ATSF management had to answer to was their board, and maybe some of the larger shareholders. Amtrak has to answer to politicians and any number of bloviating commentators with a media platform. And most of those commentators are just using the food and beverage issue as a hammer to attack the concept of passenger rail transport, for whatever reasons they are opposed to passenger rail.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That service model worked very well on the SL back in the 1990's, so much that it eliminated dining car losses. Amtrak needs to bring this service model back and expand it to all LD trains. This would allow them to meet the "no F&B losses mandate" while enhancing dining service across the national network.

Another time this was partially tried was about 10 years ago with the original Cross Country Cafe concept. It wasn't 24 hours, but the "all day menu" was available from 11 AM to Midnight and included "build your own" burgers and garden burgers, Quesadillias, Lasagna, specialty salads, etc. in addition to the regular cafe menu which was the "express" menu. Then during the meal hours the traditional dining car standards were added to the the all day menu.

 

[JRR]

That service model worked very well on the SL back in the 1990's, so much that it eliminated dining car losses. Amtrak needs to bring this service model back and expand it to all LD trains. This would allow them to meet the "no F&B losses mandate" while enhancing dining service across the national network.

You can cut costs all you want but will never cover them unless you have sufficient revenue. The question is how does AMTRAK account for revenue? How much of the sleeper ticket charge is attributable to F&B?

Remember that there can be multiple persons in a room and all are entitled to meals.

For example, a trip from Miami to New York Penn Station will normally have four meals - breakfast, lunch and dinner on the first day and breakfast on the second day. Since normally up to two people may be in a roomette or room for a total of 8 meals. This, a sufficient portion of the sleeper doom charge should be allocated to cover the cost of providing those meals. Further, since the sleeper charge is the same when there is only one person in the room, in those cases, AMTRAK is actually getting a bonus in revenue and a reduction in the cost of food.

Further, since the amount of food consumed will vary by the sleeper passenger appetite or likes (some may order steak and some may not eat at all), if AMTRAK properly accounts for revenue based upon the potential for meals consumed and at least an average amount of consumption per passenger, there should not be a problem in covering costs.

The meals consumed by Coach passengers should be an opportunity for additional revenue.

That brings us back to how AMTRAK actually accounts for F&B revenue. I don’t know the answer to this. It has been suggested that revenue is based upon the order of the sleeper passenger. If so that is totally wrong as outlined above. The sleeper passenger’s order merely accounts for the food consumed (ie the cost of such food not the price on the menu), and totally ignores the revenue which should be properly apportioned from the sleeper room charge.

It would seem that the Rail Passenger Association should follow up on this rather than being concerned about the law requiring F&B to break even. It would seem that a proper allocation of revenue received from room charges (ie - enough to cover potential meals ) would solve the issue.

 

[Eric S]

Has anyone actually documented that 24/7 food service eliminated losses (that revenues actually exceeded costs)? As best I recall, this claim is based upon one person's (or organization's) assertion that did not actually have supporting evidence behind it.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

Has anyone actually documented that 24/7 food service eliminated losses (that revenues actually exceeded costs)? As best I recall, this claim is based upon one person's (or organization's) assertion that did not actually have supporting evidence behind it.

I have to agree with you on this. The only way for the diner to elimate losses is to fill all the tables and have high turn over. I don't know if this even possible since the galley has limited space to cook multiple meals.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I have to agree with you on this. The only way for the diner to elimate losses is to fill all the tables and have high turn over. I don't know if this even possible since the galley has limited space to cook multiple meals.

I have no idea If the claim is true or not, but back in the 90’s, that was before the “Simplifief Dining Service” (and we all thought that was bad!) which eliminated the second cook in the kitchen, and I think it eliminated a server as well. Before SDS you could actually fill the diners for every seating, and serve more people. The extra staff also meant you could use real dishes and glassware and serve more cooked to order items. Back then one of the cooks was always on eggs, so you could get eggs ordered anyway you want.

 

[Lonestar648]

The Dining Car starts off having abnormally high (for food service industry) employee costs. Next the crew size limits the number of people who can be served per hour. Increasing the crew size significantly increases the Dining Car base costs to operate. For some reason, several of the tables are used for non-revenue purposes knocking out four potential meals per table. Think of the additional people that could be served when at Breakfast people give up on the Wait List, or are told no more reservations can be taken. Unlike most restaurants, the Kitchen staff does not have the ability to use items thawed and not ordered, so these items have to be trashed Amtrak which violates the biggest rule in operating a restaurant, you throw nothing away, you find a way to use it. Based on this, Amtrak operates the Dining Car to lose money before the train pulls out of the station. Could they sell more to Coach passengers? Absolutely! Does Amtrak want to? No! If management was serious about the Dining Car, there would be larger staffs on both levels of the Dining Car, the pricing and availability of meals would be all day, with possibly cut off times for certain parts of the menu. Promote the special flat rate to go meals served in Coach to passengers at their seats. With say 100 Sleeper passengers on board, adding a small percentage eat in their rooms, the availability of seating for Coach passengers, less those who opt out of the meal at their seat, if all tables were active, would be approximately 48, based on three full Dinner seating. Now, look at if you continue closing 4 tables per seating which would eliminate 48 passengers from eating.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

A great point that you just made... if room service was actively offered by SCA’s there would be more takers.... and that frees up space for coach passengers. I hadn’t thought about that.

 

[JRR]

The Dining Car starts off having abnormally high (for food service industry) employee costs. Next the crew size limits the number of people who can be served per hour. Increasing the crew size significantly increases the Dining Car base costs to operate. For some reason, several of the tables are used for non-revenue purposes knocking out four potential meals per table. Think of the additional people that could be served when at Breakfast people give up on the Wait List, or are told no more reservations can be taken. Unlike most restaurants, the Kitchen staff does not have the ability to use items thawed and not ordered, so these items have to be trashed Amtrak which violates the biggest rule in operating a restaurant, you throw nothing away, you find a way to use it. Based on this, Amtrak operates the Dining Car to lose money before the train pulls out of the station. Could they sell more to Coach passengers? Absolutely! Does Amtrak want to? No! If management was serious about the Dining Car, there would be larger staffs on both levels of the Dining Car, the pricing and availability of meals would be all day, with possibly cut off times for certain parts of the menu. Promote the special flat rate to go meals served in Coach to passengers at their seats. With say 100 Sleeper passengers on board, adding a small percentage eat in their rooms, the availability of seating for Coach passengers, less those who opt out of the meal at their seat, if all tables were active, would be approximately 48, based on three full Dinner seating. Now, look at if you continue closing 4 tables per seating which would eliminate 48 passengers from eating.

Read my earlier post. It doesn’t matter how many sleeper passengers eat or if none eat, the revenue from the sleeper passengers is the same. It is whatever portion of the sleeper room fare which is apportioned to and credited as revenue!

The question remains: What is AMTRAK reporting or crediting as revenue from the sleeper fare?

 

[dlagrua]

If anyone here has traveled on the Cardinal, meals are served in a "dinerlite" car of which is 1/2 cafe and 1/2 diner. One employee reheats pre-prepared meals in a convection oven and serves them. I was told by RPA that this was the model that Anderson wants for the Eastern trains. Large convection ovens were purchased for the Viewliner diners but AFAIK have not been installed as yet. While we are not thrilled with Cardinal food; it is far superior to the boxed meals that they are now serving. That boxed food is really poor quality, the absolute bottom of the barrel. Having been served that fodder once, we haven't taken another Eastern route train. We have spent thousands on Amtrak trips over the years, but they need to offer food that is palatable to get our business back. If they ever get those 24 slot convection ovens installed we may get it.

 

[Lonestar648]

From what I was told, the only revenue that moves over to the Dining Car from the Sleepers is from actual food order tickets. If a passenger chooses not to eat a particular meal, it is my understanding that nothing is transferred to the Dining Car.