Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Slim to nil. FRA calls an MU a locomotive and requires it to be maintained as such.
Amtrak Metroliner cab car roster, status and locations
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Interesting...I hadn't considered that aspect. So from what your saying, it would be costlier to maintain six EMU's overall, than say, maintaining an electric locomotive, and six coaches, with one of those possibly being a 'cab-coach'?
battalion51
Engineer
If you read what I wrote it is relevant.
Don't forget that ten years ago before electrification was put back in use between PHL and HAR that the Keystones ran with an electric from NYP to PHL and then a diesel from PHL to HAR, and were wyed in HAR.
Given the direction change it's an easier power change than anywhere else because the new power can attach to the rear of the train while the old power cuts off from the front. Quick brake test and you're done.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
That is my understanding. It has been the excuse used by NJT of years to justify their slow as molasses schedules over hilly routes on electrified rail lines- they insist on locomotive hauled trains.
jis
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It is more than likely that the Acela IIs will be distributed power articulated sets which would mean that the entire set would be considered a locomotive. That is what most high speed trains in the world are today. Even Alstom which pioneered the non-distributed power TGVs first relented by adding a powered truck under the first and last carriage of the consist adjacent to the power heads. And now with the advent of AGV they have gone whole hog distributed power with motors distributed all through the consist.
So I would really not worry too much about the EMU thing. They will be acquired and run notwithstanding the Neaderthals at NJT. It is hard to find an off the shelf HSR set these days that does not have distributed power thus rendering each car to be an FRA locomotive in some way shape or form.
Besides any real commuter operation around New York which knows what it is doing (unlike NJT) runs EMUs and has just finished another round of acquisition of brand new EMUs. Even NJT contemplated converting sets of 3 MLV cars into what would essentially look like a power car plus two or three car units that were to be MU-bale. However, some rail advocates thought that would be a terrible thing so they managed to get it off NJT's agenda. So even NJT does not consider the FRA rule to be too much of a problem any more.
So I would really not worry too much about the EMU thing. They will be acquired and run notwithstanding the Neaderthals at NJT. It is hard to find an off the shelf HSR set these days that does not have distributed power thus rendering each car to be an FRA locomotive in some way shape or form.
Besides any real commuter operation around New York which knows what it is doing (unlike NJT) runs EMUs and has just finished another round of acquisition of brand new EMUs. Even NJT contemplated converting sets of 3 MLV cars into what would essentially look like a power car plus two or three car units that were to be MU-bale. However, some rail advocates thought that would be a terrible thing so they managed to get it off NJT's agenda. So even NJT does not consider the FRA rule to be too much of a problem any more.
ronkstevens
Service Attendant
So you're saying the locomotive swap in Philly is just as fast as using a cab car? I doubt it.
Even if the crew needed to do that one time and performed it quickly, being able to perform it constantly in all weather conditions for each and every trainset during the day, and maintain the current schedule, is something that I don't see probable.
Acela150
Super Buff
At PHL when 42/43 change power it's listed as about 25-30 minutes for the power change. For some strange reason it takes all of that 25-30 Minutes from arrival to departure to change power and board passengers. The crews that do it are slow as could possibly be.. It takes them about 5 minutes to get the incoming power off the train. Outgoing power backs on and waits for the incoming power to clear the train. With the incoming clear then the outgoing backs on. Outgoing hooked on they take some time to assure it made the hook. Then put HEP and COMM's in place. Since it's a high level platform they have to get out of the track area by climbing through the locomotive on the non platform side. All of that takes 10 minutes or so. All of that takes 20 minutes or so. Once they have the power restored they give about 10 minutes for boarding.
With the Push-Pull sets they come in. The outgoing crew is already on the platform. While the train from NYP or HAR is emptying out the incoming crew hands over the train info they'll need. Once the HAR or NYP crowds have come and gone they send down the passengers heading to NYP or HAR and the crews are running Brake and Power checks on the train. All of this can be done in less then 10 minutes. Keeping in mind that this is with a light passenger count for a mid-day train to HAR with a train to NYP it should take 10-15 minutes.
With the Push-Pull sets they come in. The outgoing crew is already on the platform. While the train from NYP or HAR is emptying out the incoming crew hands over the train info they'll need. Once the HAR or NYP crowds have come and gone they send down the passengers heading to NYP or HAR and the crews are running Brake and Power checks on the train. All of this can be done in less then 10 minutes. Keeping in mind that this is with a light passenger count for a mid-day train to HAR with a train to NYP it should take 10-15 minutes.
rickycourtney
Conductor
My two cents...As much as rail fans hate to see any changes to the old equipment... turning the old AEM-7 locomotives into NPCU's after their retirement seems like a smart move for Amtrak considering the shortage of cab cars.
If all the AEM-7's are converted there will be over 40 new NPCU's in the fleet. That's a lot more than the current cab cars, meaning more trains could run push-pull, increasing efficiency.
If all the AEM-7's are converted there will be over 40 new NPCU's in the fleet. That's a lot more than the current cab cars, meaning more trains could run push-pull, increasing efficiency.
MikefromCrete
Engineer
I believe there are new safety rules which add considerably to the time required to change locomotives.The old NH changed power at New Haven in 7 minutes, according to old timetables.
The PRR did similarly at Harrisburg.
I guess it's just a "lost art".....
neroden
Engineer
Regarding converting AEM-7s to cabs, I simply wonder how much of the equipment which would be used for cabs is already worn out or obsolete and would need replacement. (Wheels, axles, suspension, controls, etc.) Converted locomotives may be *heavier* than revenue cars, which the FRA likes for grade-crossing crashes, but they aren't really ideal designs for cab cars.
The consortium of states is buying a bunch of brand-new bilevel cab cars. I'm sure Amtrak would prefer to buy some brand-new single-level cab cars as well, as soon as the money can be found. There is a question as to whether it is worth the expense of retrofitting old locomotives as cab cars in the meantime; I guess it depends on how much that retrofit costs.
The consortium of states is buying a bunch of brand-new bilevel cab cars. I'm sure Amtrak would prefer to buy some brand-new single-level cab cars as well, as soon as the money can be found. There is a question as to whether it is worth the expense of retrofitting old locomotives as cab cars in the meantime; I guess it depends on how much that retrofit costs.
William W.
Lead Service Attendant
It would be kind of funny to see them in non-electrified areas, haha.
They are pretty old, so I don't know if all of them can be converted, but they definitely should convert all the units that they can. It would seem to me to be a much cheaper option than building brand-new cab cars from scratch. It would at least be a good stopgap measure until they can get new ones (which knowing Amtrak, might as well be the next decade).
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
jis
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Yes. It was the NYer, and as usual he was not coherent enough to articulate the reason.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
His given reason, the one he hoodwinked the people who weren't on my side of the issue when the vote came out, was his usual argument of the loading speed of the MLVs. He further argued that the Arrow III cars could simply be refurbished and given automatic double-tap capability. I'm not sure about the latter, but I do agree the Arrow IIIs are a preferable arrangement to MLV power cars.
However, I staunchly objected to the idea of killing the MLV power car order because, politics being what they are, I assumed that if we did, the Arrows would be retired anyway, single level MUs would not be ordered, and we'd be left with a fleet of entirely locomotive hauled slugs. I was right.
However, I staunchly objected to the idea of killing the MLV power car order because, politics being what they are, I assumed that if we did, the Arrows would be retired anyway, single level MUs would not be ordered, and we'd be left with a fleet of entirely locomotive hauled slugs. I was right.
jis
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The only fly in the ointment was that there aren't enough Arrow IIIs left that do not have structural problems that will cost a lot to fix. But he would not listen to such information that does not fit his world view. The Arrow IIIs will go away in the next 5 years. It is still an open issue what additional cars will be ordered, if any, by NJT. They do have enough locomotives to convert completely to push-pull at this time, now that they are using the ALP45s pretty freely for pure electric operations on all routes.
They would probably need another 100 or so cars. My preference would be to get 70 or so MPVs thus getting 70 3 car EMU sets, the balance remaining push-pull. But we'll see what happens. A hundred to 120 car single level EMU order is a possibility but seems to make less sense to me given the inventory on hand.
Mods: If you wish please feel free to extract this part of the thread and move it to the Commuter group of threads.
They would probably need another 100 or so cars. My preference would be to get 70 or so MPVs thus getting 70 3 car EMU sets, the balance remaining push-pull. But we'll see what happens. A hundred to 120 car single level EMU order is a possibility but seems to make less sense to me given the inventory on hand.
Mods: If you wish please feel free to extract this part of the thread and move it to the Commuter group of threads.
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If Amtrak converts some AEM-7s to NPCUs, they should convert as many as they need, not as many as they can. The conversions cost money. Also, besides the 5 AEM-7ACs that may get leased to SEPTA, some of the AC units in better condition should be kept in storage as a just in case reserve.
In the May 2014 monthly report, there are 5 cab cars scheduled for level 1 overhaul at Bear for FY14 with the comment that the shop projects 6 units will be completed this FY and "will transition production line to a Level 2 project in FY15". Appears that Amtrak has decided to keep the Metroliner cab cars in service as long as they can.
battalion51
Engineer
The guys up in New Haven get 9 minutes to do a power change on 55, 141, 143, 145, and 148. With all of those trains (except for 55) the engine is on the leading end of the move coming in and going out. On 55 the setup is similar to how it would be in Philadelphia where the incoming engine is on the far end relative to the yard where the outbound power is coming out from. To complicate New Haven's setup even more you're on Metro North's railroad. I'm not saying that there should be a move towards putting diesels back on the Keystones, I'm just saying that it's possible to do a power change in less than ten minutes, and it's still done everyday.
NE933
Conductor
Metroliners are are parents of everything Amfleet, and are cousins to Acela and Viewliner.Well that statement makes me feel really ancient.....I recall when the first Metroliner cars hit the rails, emblazoned with PRR Keystone's....they were the last word in ultra-modern rail travel....
All except Acela were Budd Company designs, so where's the family connection to Acela's?Metroliners are are parents of everything Amfleet, and are cousins to Acela and Viewliner.Well that statement makes me feel really ancient.....I recall when the first Metroliner cars hit the rails, emblazoned with PRR Keystone's....they were the last word in ultra-modern rail travel....
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