Amtrak service on the NS Harrisburg Line..Could it be possible?

[Oreius]

After seeing the Autumn Express roll through my hometown of Lebanon, I started thinking. Could it be possible Amtrak could run a service on the NS Harrisburg line? It would run from Harrisburg to New York by way of Reading and Allentown (and perhaps could supplant the Pennsylvanian between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg). It could stop at Hershey, Lebanon, Reading, Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, and then follow the NJ Transit Raritan Line to Newark and then on to New York. What do you think??

 

[benjibear]

It is a nice dream, but I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[Oreius]

I believe it would be a well-patronized service, considering that Allentown is the 3rd largest city in PA and Reading is the 5th largest city. The Lehigh Valley is one of the largest metro areas in the state. It could very-well become a corridor route like the Keystone Service, but with fewer trains given the busy nature of the NS Harrisburg and Reading lines.

 

[Anderson]

I'm just wondering, but pre-NS this was obviously Conrail territory. Is this a line that Conrail picked up from Reading? I'm only wondering because if it is, if I'm not mistaken there was substantial commuter service on the line up through the early 80s.

 

[ronkstevens]

I'm just wondering, but pre-NS this was obviously Conrail territory. Is this a line that Conrail picked up from Reading? I'm only wondering because if it is, if I'm not mistaken there was substantial commuter service on the line up through the early 80s.

Ended in 1981. Every so often discussion comes up about getting some kind of service going again, usually from Reading to Philadelphia. Nothing ever comes of it. Money, like always, is one of the main reasons why.

 

[railiner]

NJT did briefly extend their Raritan Valley line into Phillipsburg, just across the Delaware River from Easton, but it was not successful, and service was then cut back.

The NJT line is mostly over the former Central Railroad of New Jersey.

I seriously doubt the NS would welcome passenger trains, be it Amtrak or SEPTA over this line due to the heavy volume of freight trains. When Amtrak inherited the Norheast Corridor including the Keystone line from Penn Central when Conrail was created, most of the former PC freight trains were shifted over to the former Reading and Lehigh Valley, as well as the B&O.

That said, I must commend the NS for its very nice handling of our excursion train....they really 'gave us the railroad', with hardly any delays. We arrived early.

 

[Oreius]

I watched the Autumn Express pass through Lebanon again early this afternoon. It was running on Track 2 (the normal eastbound track). NS was sending Intermodals primarily on Track 1 eastbound.

 

[Kevin]

The AMTRAK NEC FUTURE study prepared for the FRA includes several scenarios where the service would extend to Allentown (through Easton and Bethlehem) and another to Scranton. However, these are like the wish list for Amtrak. Although many studies have been done for both lines and many advocates for each, there is just no money. And, after this past election this is going to be even less political will. AMTRAK will have a hard enough time advocating for its existing infrastructure and the replacement of the Baltimore and NYC tunnels.

 

[Ryan]

Anything is possible, given enough money. It would be great to see passenger rail adequately funded so that we could see things like this, but I'm not hopeful of anything changing in the next 5-10 years.

 

[jis]

NJT did briefly extend their Raritan Valley line into Phillipsburg, just across the Delaware River from Easton, but it was not successful, and service was then cut back.

The NJT line is mostly over the former Central Railroad of New Jersey.

Wasn't it the case that NJT inherited the NJDOT subsidized PC/Conrail service to Philipsburg and ran it for a few years before discontinuing it? This was similar to the NJT service that also continued for a few years on the West Trenton Line before getting canned.
Yes, the service was along CNJ. That row is railbanked and the track on it are not in the best of shape, and part of it has been re-purposed for use by the NS Lehigh Valley Line near Philipsburg. The only stable way of getting from Newark to Philipsburg other than via the Lehigh Valley line at present is along the EL to Dover and onto Hackettstown and then along the Conrail Shared Asset Washington secondary to Philipsburg. I am not sure that the old CNJ is usable too far beyond Glen Gardner today.

I cannot foresee resumption of service to Philippsburg soon since all studies show that there isn't enough ridership that will move over from a relatively fast I78 bus service to an inevitably relatively slow and circuitous (what is affordable) rail service on that route. I am almost certain that NS CSAO will not allow any passenger trains on the Lehigh Valley line without extracting several pounds of flesh first, and they are not going to sell that line to the State either.

 

[railiner]

Not sure of just who was responsible for running the train when it was extended to P'burg....your memory is better than mine....but my point was that it was tried, and did not do too well....

 

[neroden]

Service to Bethlehem/Allentown from NYC would be highly successful; from Philadelphia it would probably also be quite successful.

The state of politics for the last few decades (and likely the next few) means that the service (and the capital improvements nessecary for it) would absolutely have to be backed (paid for) by the state of Pennsylvania. For a long time this seemed to be out of the question; but the political mood has changed very recently in Pennsylvania. With Act 89 getting passed with bipartisan (!!!) support, expanded rail service to more parts of the state starts to seem like a real possibility. With Philadelphia and Pittsburgh having some service, Allentown (the next largest metro area) would be the obvious first choice. State boosterism (and ownership of a ROW) means that Allentown-Philadelphia is probably more likely than Allentown-NYC, although Allentown-NYC might be more popular.

 

[jis]

Not sure of just who was responsible for running the train when it was extended to P'burg....your memory is better than mine....but my point was that it was tried, and did not do too well....

Yeah, I was trying to clarify that it was the rump of the original PC/CNJ service to Allentown and Bethlehem that finally became the Philipsburg service that NJT operated for a few years, and then cut back to High Bridge, where it terminates today with weekday only service. On weekends the service ends at Raritan.
Given the choice in funding between Philipsburg and Lackawanna Cutoff to Scranton and then onto Binghamton, I think the latter is more likely to get funded first, specially since both Pennsylvania and New York want to see that happen. New York actually depends on it happening for service from New York to Binghamton since that is the route that gives a running time that is within earshot of being competitive with Route 17. This will involve rebuilding the NJ Lackawanna Cutoff to Slateford and then upgrading the short line that operates to Scranton from there, and finally CP or NS to Binghamton voer the Tunkhannock Viaduct. Some combination of NJT and some authority from PA would be the primary operator of New York to Scranton as an extension of the Morris and Essex Service that terminates at Lake Hopatcong today and is about to be extended by 7 miles to Andover on the cutoff. Amtrak would be a lead contender for running what would possibly be a multi-state funded train to Binghamton.

 

[Palmland]

As long as we're dreaming, it is possible to go south on the NS line too. The most logical origin would be Washington to Shenandoah Jct, WV on the route of MARC/Capitol Ltd trains. It's between Harpers Ferry and Martinsburg. I believe there is still a head on connection to the N&W/NS valley line to Roanoke. Great way to see the gorgeous Shenandoah Valley but I suspect not as fast as the Lynchburg train planned extension.

No doubt railfans would use it. As late as 1956 the N&W's night train from New York, via PRR-Harrisburg was still behind steam.

 

[benjibear]

So if we are dreaming I want York to Harrisburg PA.

 

[Barciur]

Baltimore -> Harrisburg while we're at it would be nice. It's annoying to have to go to Philly from Lancaster, it'd be nicer for a connection in Harrisburg

 

[jis]

Baltimore -> Harrisburg while we're at it would be nice. It's annoying to have to go to Philly from Lancaster, it'd be nicer for a connection in Harrisburg

Baltimore - York - Harrisburg would be an excellent candidate for a somewhat regular Thruway bus service. If this were in California, it probably would already be served such. A rail service restoration would be somewhat expensive and hard to cost justify at present, given the long list of other things that need attention in that area.

 

[railiner]

Going back to the discussion about New York to Binghamton....while it would be nice to serve East Stroudsburg and Scranton, if New York State wanted to restore service, they could simply extend some MN Port Jervis line trains to Binghamton on the former Erie route, which still exists....

 

[jis]

That has been considered and rejected because the running times are hopelessly non competitive with Rt 17 and there are basically no population centers served between Pt. J and Bingo. So cost recovery will also be terrible. And there is no hope of speeding anything up on that line. Just not gonna happen.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Anderson]

Not sure of just who was responsible for running the train when it was extended to P'burg....your memory is better than mine....but my point was that it was tried, and did not do too well....

Yeah, I was trying to clarify that it was the rump of the original PC/CNJ service to Allentown and Bethlehem that finally became the Philipsburg service that NJT operated for a few years, and then cut back to High Bridge, where it terminates today with weekday only service. On weekends the service ends at Raritan.
Given the choice in funding between Philipsburg and Lackawanna Cutoff to Scranton and then onto Binghamton, I think the latter is more likely to get funded first, specially since both Pennsylvania and New York want to see that happen. New York actually depends on it happening for service from New York to Binghamton since that is the route that gives a running time that is within earshot of being competitive with Route 17. This will involve rebuilding the NJ Lackawanna Cutoff to Slateford and then upgrading the short line that operates to Scranton from there, and finally CP or NS to Binghamton voer the Tunkhannock Viaduct. Some combination of NJT and some authority from PA would be the primary operator of New York to Scranton as an extension of the Morris and Essex Service that terminates at Lake Hopatcong today and is about to be extended by 7 miles to Andover on the cutoff. Amtrak would be a lead contender for running what would possibly be a multi-state funded train to Binghamton.

Jis,

Just wondering, but what is the status of that general project? I see it come up every-so-often but I cannot say that I've seen much in the way of concrete progress in a while there.

 

[jis]

Anderson, the only action on the ground is the development of service to Andover NJ proceeding at snail's pace. There is no funding at present for restoration of the Andover to Slateford Jct. segment of the cutoff in NJ. Though Rep Freylinghausen who is a relatively powerful Republican Congressman is and has been very supportive and has even slipped in money here and there in various federal bills for this.

In PA there is some funding allocated for some upgrade work on the Slateford to Scranton segment. At Scranton the station will be at the site of the current station that is used by tourist trains out of Stematown, so that will not involve any nosebleeds. Similarly there are identified sites at intermediate potential stops like Moscow (yes!) etc.

Bottom line, progress is slow. Main hindrance is funding and lack of a concrete body in PA to manage that part. Operation will most probably be NJT which would be another reason for things moving slowly until the management at NJT changes all the way upto the Governor. The biggest pain at present is the "wannabe T-Party but can't quite get there" Governor who is firmly ensconced in the id '70s auto-centric mindset, never to budge from there.

 

[neroden]

Regarding the much-delayed Lackawanna Cutoff project:

The rails from Scranton to the Delaware Water Gap are operational for freight, and are now controlled by a single "Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority" managed by the counties. They don't have much funding for upgrades, but on the other hand, upgrades aren't very useful until the New Jersey segment is finished. Scranton has a functional station (at Steamtown) with a wheelchair lift, and the Authority runs tourist trains from there to the Delaware Rail Gap occasionally. The Authority was set up to provide the management for Pennsylvania funding of Scranton-Hoboken trains, and can presumably do so once it is possible to run trains all the way.

Basically, the main problem is one of getting the structures and track rehabilitated in New Jersey and across the river. At that point one could actually start running trains to Scranton immediately; the relatively limited funding needed for further trackwork and further stations in Pennsylvania would probably show up at that point.

NJT is currently building the fully-funded, earmarked extension to Andover, but it has been delayed for *years* due to weird issues, including the designation of areas which flooded post-1983 as "wetlands", discovery of endangered species living near the line, problems with rehabilitating the Roseville Tunnel, and diversion of trackwork personnel to other parts of NJT due to Sandy etc.

If the Andover service ever gets started, that will have dealt with some of the most obnoxious pieces of rehabilitation; Andover to the Delaware Water Gap is unlikely to have the same sort of problems. There are at least two huge concrete viaducts from Andover to Pennsylvania which will constitute the bulk of the remaining work.

Binghamton-Scranton is only a dream at this point, but would run entirely on existing, well-maintained rails, currently owned by CP (though there's talk of CP selling them to NS). There's plenty of room for a platform in Binghamton. At that point, Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse could run on the lightly-used NYS&W line... Cortland station still exists, and there are multiple stations in Syracuse left over from OnTrack, connecting finally to the Syracuse Amtrak station. Senator Schumer has proposed running the full route Hoboken-Scranton-Binghamton-Syracuse.

Unfortunately all of this only makes sense if the route in New Jersey can be rebuilt, and NJT has been dragging its feet for whatever reason.

 

[neroden]

Regarding Bethlehem/Allentown, I would expect the first line to get restoration of service would be the SEPTA Bethlehem Branch line -- although it has the disadvantage of having no rails on it, it has the advantage of being almost entirely owned by SEPTA. There is an obnoxious "rail trail" running on it, but it's subject to railbanking law and can therefore be ripped out in favor of rails at any time. If the political winds align for rail service to Allentown, it's probably going to be cheaper to rebuild these rails than to pay what NS will ask for service heading east.