Amtrak Status Maps / Amsnag - Down

[John Bobinyec]

I wonder if Amtrak took notice of IP addresses that were doing more than a "normal" amount of requests and pulled the plug on all of them.

At first I thought this could be the case because I got results when a ran amsnag from my own machine instead of the normal web hosting server. But then I noticed that they were nonsense. So I suspect Amtrak made some change that is causing the problem. Theoretically, changing one character in the reservation query response could send amsnag to the bit bucket.

Contact me privately, please. <- Disregard - already done.

jb (jgb @ dbd01.com )

 

[dlagrua]

I wonder if Amtrak took notice of IP addresses that were doing more than a "normal" amount of requests and pulled the plug on all of them.

At first I thought this could be the case because I got results when a ran amsnag from my own machine instead of the normal web hosting server. But then I noticed that they were nonsense. So I suspect Amtrak made some change that is causing the problem. Theoretically, changing one character in the reservation query response could send amsnag to the bit bucket.

Contact me privately, please. <- Disregard - already done.

jb (jgb @ dbd01.com )

What ever the future holds for Amsnag I would also like to express my sincerest thanks for this valuable trip planning tool. If Amtrak in fact pulled the plug on it, it will just take longer for the travelers to find prices. I don't understand what they are trying to accomplish. Pricing information is always in the public domain.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

What ever the future holds for Amsnag I would also like to express my sincerest thanks for this valuable trip planning tool. If Amtrak in fact pulled the plug on it, it will just take longer for the travelers to find prices. I don't understand what they are trying to accomplish. Pricing information is always in the public domain.

From JB's post, it sounds like Amtrak just made some in-house changes to their system/program(s) which just happened to affect the Status Map and Amsnag programs. Doesn't sound like Amtrak did anything on purpose to take them down.

 

[leemell]

I've initiated a change which I expect to take place in "24 to 48 hours". If it works, the maps will be back online. We'll have to wait and see.

jb

PS We're back - 9.29 a.m. 4/10/2012

Thanks a Million, JB! :lol:

Off-hand, and without divulging information that you want to keep under wraps, was the issue a side-effect of something else Amtrak did with their side of the system? I would be very disappointed if the problem was caused by a deliberate attempt at shutting down sites like the Status Maps and AmSnag (considering, as noted before, that even Amtrak employees use the Maps and AmSnag has become rather invaluable in its own right!)

I think they were doing a little spring cleaning, or perhaps "tuning" is a better word. We just happened to get caught in the fallout.

jb

I'm getting a "page not found" when I try to go to Amsnag now. Did you take the page down?

 

[PRR 60]

I've initiated a change which I expect to take place in "24 to 48 hours". If it works, the maps will be back online. We'll have to wait and see.

jb

PS We're back - 9.29 a.m. 4/10/2012

Thanks a Million, JB! :lol:

Off-hand, and without divulging information that you want to keep under wraps, was the issue a side-effect of something else Amtrak did with their side of the system? I would be very disappointed if the problem was caused by a deliberate attempt at shutting down sites like the Status Maps and AmSnag (considering, as noted before, that even Amtrak employees use the Maps and AmSnag has become rather invaluable in its own right!)

I think they were doing a little spring cleaning, or perhaps "tuning" is a better word. We just happened to get caught in the fallout.

jb

I'm getting a "page not found" when I try to go to Amsnag now. Did you take the page down?

John does not run Amsnag. He runs Amtrak Status Maps.

 

[leemell]

I've initiated a change which I expect to take place in "24 to 48 hours". If it works, the maps will be back online. We'll have to wait and see.

jb

PS We're back - 9.29 a.m. 4/10/2012

Thanks a Million, JB! :lol:

Off-hand, and without divulging information that you want to keep under wraps, was the issue a side-effect of something else Amtrak did with their side of the system? I would be very disappointed if the problem was caused by a deliberate attempt at shutting down sites like the Status Maps and AmSnag (considering, as noted before, that even Amtrak employees use the Maps and AmSnag has become rather invaluable in its own right!)

I think they were doing a little spring cleaning, or perhaps "tuning" is a better word. We just happened to get caught in the fallout.

jb

I'm getting a "page not found" when I try to go to Amsnag now. Did you take the page down?

John does not run Amsnag. He runs Amtrak Status Maps.

You're right, sorry, meant that for PaulM.

 

[PaulM]

I'm getting a "page not found" when I try to go to Amsnag now. Did you take the page down?

Yes. When Amtrak.com receives a query from Amsnag's IP address, it it sends back this back. Can't do much with it.

 

[Ryan]

What're the requirements for hosting something like this?

 

[Train2104]

I'm getting a "page not found" when I try to go to Amsnag now. Did you take the page down?

Yes. When Amtrak.com receives a query from Amsnag's IP address, it it sends back this back. Can't do much with it.

What about the same exact query from another IP?

 

[Ryan]

That's what I was getting at. I was wondering how hard it would be to turn these into something that can be run locally for personal use.

 

[zephyr17]

That's what I was getting at. I was wondering how hard it would be to turn these into something that can be run locally for personal use.

Yes. PaulM, would you consider letting us see your code? If it was reworked into an app that could run locally, Amtrak couldn't block it based on IP address, since there wouldn't be just one. Make it shareware.

 

[PaulM]

What about the same exact query from another IP?

I don't why it wouldn't work until Amtrak catches up with you.

What're the requirements for hosting something like this?

A web server, php interpreter, and a MYSQL server. With some redesign you could get by without MYSQL.

would you consider letting us see your code? If it was reworked into an app that could run locally, Amtrak couldn't block it based on IP address, since there wouldn't be just one. Make it shareware.

I would except I might get too many obscene comments about the spaghetti code The URL that gets sent to Amtrak is almost 2000 characters long (that's Amtrak, not me).

 

[dlagrua]

Plan B. We pin a post titled Fare Assistance Snag. Members post their train preference, accommodations desired, class, travel date range etc and with each responding post each member checks one or two dates and posts the prices.

In a company I was employed by a while ago I worked for a very shrewd manager and his favorite saying was "you show me a system and I'll show you a way to beat it". We can beat Amtrak. We have the numbers to do it. My plan is unstoppable. Let the genius IT guys try to find a way around that-LOL-LOL-LOL.

 

[Steve4031]

I appreciate status maps too. I use it to track unusually late trains even though I'm not on them. LOl. The maps are a major part of my day.

 

[sportbiker]

I want to add my own thanks to both John and PaulM. Even for the low-mileage corridor trips I do, your sites are invaluable. Many thanks for your contributions to this community.

 

[user 683]

I also want to say thanks to those who volunteer their time and services to provide these very useful web sites. I've found them to be very valuable in planning trips, particularly in understanding how often long delays occur.

Thanks again!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Well, it was fun while it lasted. Thanks again to everyone who helped build useful tools for working around Amtrak's own limitations. I'm so glad Amtrak is willing and able to save us from using tools that provide functionality Amtrak couldn't be bothered to provide themselves.

 

[Trogdor]

Since this thread is about both Status maps and Amsnag, and people keep starting separate Amsnag threads, perhaps this thread's title should be modified.

 

[Ryan]

From John's comments, I'm not sure that Amtrak did this purposefully.

 

[PRR 60]

Since this thread is about both Status maps and Amsnag, and people keep starting separate Amsnag threads, perhaps this thread's title should be modified.

We think alike. I added Amsnag to the title.

 

[Railroad Bill]

I just tried the Amtrak status map and it seems to be working :unsure:

Still no luck with the AMSnag site

 

[Ryan]

I just tried the Amtrak status map and it seems to be working :unsure:

Yes, John said he had fixed the glitch.

I've initiated a change which I expect to take place in "24 to 48 hours". If it works, the maps will be back online. We'll have to wait and see.

jb

PS We're back - 9.29 a.m. 4/10/2012

Not sure if Paul is going to be able to bring Amsnag back.

 

[Lawdude]

OK. I am a longtime lurker, but I suppose that this issue has roused me to post.

I suspect Amtrak doesn't really mind the status maps that much (they've gotten much better in their on time performance after all) but HATES Amsnag. Why? It goes back to how carriers price their services.

Yield management was invented by the airlines. Economists would call it "price discrimination", which sounds nefarious but really isn't. With every product or service, there are people who are willing to pay more and people who will only buy it for less. If you charge one fixed price, you lose potential revenue from both groups.

So pricing strategies are all about trying to make it possible to charge different groups different prices. This is why supermarkets have so many club cards and coupons- the price sensitive bargain hunters can claim discounts while those who don't care will often pay full price.

The problem is, transparent pricing tends to turn everyone into a bargain hunter. The old saying in the airline industry was that the business traveler in 10A who paid $1000 could never find out that the leisure traveler next to him paid $200. Of course, that oversimplified things a bit, but the basic principle was true-- the more transparent your pricing is, the harder it is to discriminate. In industries such as Hollywood where nobody is told what anyone else is charging, price discrimination is rampant.

We've already seen airlines being forced to cut costs because the Internet made their pricing more transparent than it was when you had to call or bug a travel agent.

Amsnag took that one step further. Since multiple searches are a pain, Amtrak surely feels that some people give up and end up paying a higher fare than if they had all the data in front of them. That's why Amtrak's own site doesn't provide the Amsnag capability.

Amsnag is a threat to their business model. So they moved to shut it down.

 

[jebr]

OK. I am a longtime lurker, but I suppose that this issue has roused me to post.

I suspect Amtrak doesn't really mind the status maps that much (they've gotten much better in their on time performance after all) but HATES Amsnag. Why? It goes back to how carriers price their services.

Yield management was invented by the airlines. Economists would call it "price discrimination", which sounds nefarious but really isn't. With every product or service, there are people who are willing to pay more and people who will only buy it for less. If you charge one fixed price, you lose potential revenue from both groups.

So pricing strategies are all about trying to make it possible to charge different groups different prices. This is why supermarkets have so many club cards and coupons- the price sensitive bargain hunters can claim discounts while those who don't care will often pay full price.

The problem is, transparent pricing tends to turn everyone into a bargain hunter. The old saying in the airline industry was that the business traveler in 10A who paid $1000 could never find out that the leisure traveler next to him paid $200. Of course, that oversimplified things a bit, but the basic principle was true-- the more transparent your pricing is, the harder it is to discriminate. In industries such as Hollywood where nobody is told what anyone else is charging, price discrimination is rampant.

We've already seen airlines being forced to cut costs because the Internet made their pricing more transparent than it was when you had to call or bug a travel agent.

Amsnag took that one step further. Since multiple searches are a pain, Amtrak surely feels that some people give up and end up paying a higher fare than if they had all the data in front of them. That's why Amtrak's own site doesn't provide the Amsnag capability.

Amsnag is a threat to their business model. So they moved to shut it down.

The thing is, on Orbitz or Travelocity I can do a +/- 3 day search, a weekend search, or searches much like what AmSnag did. Plus, I remember some people claiming on here that Amtrak information is available through the same means that those airline fares are. Could something like that be built by using that access?

 

[Lawdude]

The thing is, on Orbitz or Travelocity I can do a +/- 3 day search, a weekend search, or searches much like what AmSnag did. Plus, I remember some people claiming on here that Amtrak information is available through the same means that those airline fares are. Could something like that be built by using that access?

Bear in mind that the airlines don't have a monopoly, and online aggregator sites have a lot of power (as travel agents did in the past-- indeed, Travelocity is pretty much the direct descendant of the SABRE system that travel agents used 30 years ago). The result is that most airlines feel that they have to cooperate with those sites even though they make pricing more transparent. (That said, Southwest feels it has a loyal enough customer base that they don't need to cooperate with those sites, and while it is possible to compare fares from different days on Southwest's website, it doesn't appear in the chart form that the aggregator sites use.)

Amtrak, however, has a monopoly on passenger train service, as well as a pretty loyal base of railfan customers who want to ride trains rather than use other transportation options and will pay for the privilege. This is basically the perfect storm for price discrimination.