Amtrak testing diner-lounge prototype on Capitol Limited

[battalion51]

From the Trains.com newswire:

WASHINGTON - As part of an effort to improve the economic performance of overnight trains and to give passengers more choices about when they can enjoy sit-down meals, Amtrak plans to convert dining cars and lounge cars to "diner-lounges." According to the National Association of Railroad Passengers, one of the major improvements in using the diner-lounges will be continuous sit-down meal service from 6:30 a.m. to 11 p.m. with wider menu variety. In some instances, Amtrak will reduce mechanical and fuel expenses by operating a single food service car.
Superliner diner conversions will take place first because they are simpler than conversions of Superliner Sightseer lounges. After NARP pressed Amtrak about the importance of having a "prototype" test run first, Amtrak agreed to do so. Amtrak will test the concept on the Chicago-Washington Capitol Limited during part of December and most of January.

The prototype, car number 37000, will operate two ways: as the single feature car on the train and as a lounge on a train that also carries a diner. For all trips, the plan is to turn the car (and train) the same day in Chicago; in most cases, the next round-trip follows one overnight in Washington. According to NARP, the schedule for the car, assuming no mechanical or other problems in operation is as follows:

Single car diner operation departing Washington:

Dec. 10, 16

Jan. 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28

Single car diner operation departing Chicago:

Dec. 11, 17

Jan. 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29

Car operating as lounge next to regular diner

Departing Washington:

Dec. 19, 22, 25, 28, 31

Departing Chicago:

Dec. 20, 23, 26, 29

Jan. 1

The original article can be found here.

 

[Bigval109]

From the Trains.com newswire:

WASHINGTON - As part of an effort to improve the economic performance of overnight trains and to give passengers more choices about when they can enjoy sit-down meals, Amtrak plans to convert dining cars and lounge cars to "diner-lounges." According to the National Association of Railroad Passengers, one of the major improvements in using the diner-lounges will be continuous sit-down meal service from 6:30 a.m. to 11 p.m. with wider menu variety. In some instances, Amtrak will reduce mechanical and fuel expenses by operating a single food service car.

Superliner diner conversions will take place first because they are simpler than conversions of Superliner Sightseer lounges. After NARP pressed Amtrak about the importance of having a "prototype" test run first, Amtrak agreed to do so. Amtrak will test the concept on the Chicago-Washington Capitol Limited during part of December and most of January.

The prototype, car number 37000, will operate two ways: as the single feature car on the train and as a lounge on a train that also carries a diner. For all trips, the plan is to turn the car (and train) the same day in Chicago; in most cases, the next round-trip follows one overnight in Washington. According to NARP, the schedule for the car, assuming no mechanical or other problems in operation is as follows:

Single car diner operation departing Washington:

Dec. 10, 16

Jan. 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28

Single car diner operation departing Chicago:

Dec. 11, 17

Jan. 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29

Car operating as lounge next to regular diner

Departing Washington:

Dec. 19, 22, 25, 28, 31

Departing Chicago:

Dec. 20, 23, 26, 29

Jan. 1

The original article can be found here.

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

 

[battalion51]

:huh:

 

[AlanB]

Looks like Trains basically just copied NARP's press release from last Wednesday.

 

[saxman]

So this means no Sightseer Lounge on those days. Right?

 

[AlanB]

So this means no Sightseer Lounge on those days. Right?

That would be my guess, but it is never specifically stated that the Sightseer Lounge will not run. If it does run, then I would only expect it to run when there is no diner running, and I would expect it to run without an attendant. On days when both a normal dining car runs, as well as the Diner Lite car, I would not expect to see a Sightseer Lounge at all.

 

[yarrow]

this "test" sounds like typical administrative bs after a decision has been made to make it sound like workers and consumers had some actual input in the process.

 

[AlanB]

this "test" sounds like typical administrative bs after a decision has been made to make it sound like workers and consumers had some actual input in the process.

Actually surprisingly enough, I don't think that is true. First, Amtrak did involve two LSA's early on in the process for this prototype and at least claims to have implimented some of their suggestions. Next, it is noteable that the other 11 diners currently in Beech Grove undergoing conversion are all at a point where changes can still be made based upon the testing of the prototype.

Now on the other hand, in an odd turn of events, a single level diner lite has been ready for well over 3 months at least I'd guess. Yet is has not gone into testing, even though I now understand that at least 1 or 2 more single level diner lite's are now in production and at least one is close to release.

So who knows?

 

[daveyb99]

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

 

[AlanB]

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

You got it! Sadly.

 

[daveyb99]

Actually surprisingly enough, I don't think that is true. First, Amtrak did involve two LSA's early on in the process for this prototype and at least claims to have implimented some of their suggestions. Next, it is noteable that the other 11 diners currently in Beech Grove undergoing conversion are all at a point where changes can still be made based upon the testing of the prototype.

WELL......Then if I were a LSA, I would immediately say LEAVE THE SIGHTSEERS ON !!!!!!!! Who cares about easy to climb stairs, better air conditioning, new carpet, blah blah blah. If it were my job to serve, I would want something inviting, not distracting and chaotic.

Of course, I am not a LSA but I did ride Amtrak last month.....

(edited to add quote marks by AmtrakWPK)

 

[gaspeamtrak]

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

You got it! Sadly.

ARE THEY CRAZY!!?? :angry: :angry: :angry: PLEASE KEEP BOTH CARS ON!!!

 

[printman2000]

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

You got it! Sadly.

EXCEPT... You will not be eating a steak dinner cause they don't have those anymore.

 

[Guest]

just let you know they are bring the steak back

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

You got it! Sadly.

EXCEPT... You will not be eating a steak dinner cause they don't have those anymore.

 

[battalion51]

Unfortunately this is the direction the company has decided to go, and there's pretty much nothing any of us can do about it. They have managed to get NARP to get on board (with reservations of course), but this is how Dining service will be across the country in the not too distant future.

 

[yarrow]

since consumer pressure seems to have been at least partly responsible for saving what is left of the pacific parlour car on the cs, hopefully we can do the same to save the dining car as it is now on the eb.

 

[rmgreenesq]

I just back from spending six days traveling from Worcester, Ma to Fullerton, CA on the LSL and SWC in coach. While on the train, I noticed that there seemed to be an invisible dividing line between the lounge car and the dining car. Coach passengers "belonged" in the cafe car. Sleeper passengers "belonged" in the diner. I'm not saying that anybody onboard the train (crew or passenger) was enforcing this rule. (I was a coach passenger and ate more meals than I should have in the dining car.) It just seemed to be in the mind of the average coach passenger that their food came from the snack bar, or their own provisions. I saw very few sleeping car passengers in the lounge/sightseer car. I believe that they were enjoying the privacy that they purchased, and not among the unwashed masses in the sightseer car.

Now if Amtrak has only one place where food can be obtained on the train, maybe Amtrak may sell a $20 steak(?) to a coach passenger who would have otherwise purchased the $6 microwave pizza. Maybe they can sell a $1.75 can of diet Pepsi to a sleeper passenger who would have otherwise gone into the station at a smoking stop and used the vending machine.

Also by consolidating the functions of two cars into one, there is a weight savings on the train. Weight equals fuel which equals money. I'd be willing to bet that diesel fuel is Amtrak's second biggest expense after wages.

This is near as I can tell why Amtrak is doing this. I don't think its a good idea, but that is near as I can tell is why they are doing it.

Edited for coherency

Rick

 

[AlanB]

This is near as I can tell why Amtrak is doing this. I don't think its a good idea, but that is near as I can tell is why they are doing it.

I believe that Amtrak estimates that it saves 4% on fuel costs by eliminating a car from the consist, so yes there is some savings by dropping the car.

However the only reason that Amtrak is doing this is because Congress mandated that Amtrak cut the losses on its food service. That in and of itself is ludicrous of Congress. People are complaining about how much money Amtrak has been given over the years and the average $1.2 Billion that they've been getting for the last few years. So like the proverbial Dutch boy with his finger in the dike trying to hold back the flood as the water flows over the top of the dam, Congress in its infinite wisdom decided to force Amtrak to fix a $100 Million dollar hole, while the other $1.1 Billion flows over the top of the dam.

Not to mention this mandate, while Congress continues to build bridges to no where, fix statues of Andrew Jackson in a small town in the southern US, and other wonderful wasteful projects that benefit no one or one specific area.

However I digress, returning to our hero, after the Congressional mandate someone or perhaps some people at Amtrak were handed the problem of how to stem the losses in food service. In a typical lack of vision move, IMHO, the only thought that occurred to them was "cut staffing". Or if other thoughts occurred, then they were discarded as to hard, to risky, or whatever. Because in my humble opinion, the reality is that we've been given their lack of vision answer in the form of, SDS and Diner Lite.

Instead of trying innovative ideas, like what was done to the Empire Builder and according to even Amtrak’s employee newsletter, Amtrak Ink, is a rousing success we will try Diner Lite. We’ll spend over $3 Million on the first 12 cars alone to try and stem the losses while hoping that this wonderful plan won’t chase riders and revenue away from the system. Because any losses in ridership and/or overall spending in new diner lite car by comparison to having separate diners and cafes, could torpedo the entire effort, which is to stem the losses.

 

[Sam Damon]

Now if Amtrak has only one place where food can be obtained on the train, maybe Amtrak may sell a $20 steak(?) to a coach passenger who would have otherwise purchased the $6 microwave pizza. Maybe they can sell a $1.75 can of diet Pepsi to a sleeper passenger who would have otherwise gone into the station at a smoking stop and used the vending machine.
Also by consolidating the functions of two cars into one, there is a weight savings on the train. Weight equals fuel which equals money. I'd be willing to bet that diesel fuel is Amtrak's second biggest expense after wages.

Rick,

I think you're hitting the mark here with this argument. Why coach passengers don't realize what they're spending in the cafe car compared to the diner is beyond me. Figure: sandwich, bag o' chips, and soft drink from the crummysnackbar is $9.00-$10.00. Amtrak's dining car special: hot entree, rolls, coffee, is typically around $13.00. The Amtrak food service equation used to be this: better food for lower prices in the diner. What has changed things is the improvement of microwavable food. The stuff in the crummysnackbar used to be a quantum level or so worse than what real cooks cook crank out for you in the diner. Today, the difference is a lot less, thanks to the elimination of scratch cooking in the diners.

What really boggles my imagination is why Amtrak isn't selling meal tickets for the diner at the time you book. The RRs -- or at least, ACL -- could do that in 1967, without benefit of computers for yield management. To a certain extent, I am becoming convinced Amtrak management is internalizing the arguments for Amtrak's elimination, and a LD train death wish exists. But I'm getting off the thread.

Hope your trip home went alright -- I followed your ride out on your blog.

 

[Guest]

so let me get this straight: soon there will be no sightseer lounge cars on the ld trains??

 

[Guest]

I just back from spending six days traveling from Worcester, Ma to Fullerton, CA on the LSL and SWC in coach. While on the train, I noticed that there seemed to be an invisible dividing line between the lounge car and the dining car. Coach passengers "belonged" in the cafe car. Sleeper passengers "belonged" in the diner. I'm not saying that anybody onboard the train (crew or passenger) was enforcing this rule. (I was a coach passenger and ate more meals than I should have in the dining car.) It just seemed to be in the mind of the average coach passenger that their food came from the snack bar, or their own provisions. I saw very few sleeping car passengers in the lounge/sightseer car. I believe that they were enjoying the privacy that they purchased, and not among the unwashed masses in the sightseer car.Edited for coherency

Rick

Makes sense to me. I usually stay in my room during the trip. But that does not stop me from a walk to the lounge car or even from buying something at the snack bar.

I would think if Amtrak wanted to increase Diner sales, they would simply close the Snack Bar during parts of meal times, offer a wider variety in the Diner (to include the microwave pizza if necessary) and "force" the Coach passengers to make the trip to the Diner. AND ADVERTISE THIS SERVICE. I always see one end of the Diner empty. ( On a side note, it always seems this empty space is taken over by crew as their personel space or storage areas. Not to be mean, but they have a break room in the Transistion)

As I said before, if the drop the Lounge Car, am I going to have to put up with the nonsense in the Diner.

 

[Guest]

This is near as I can tell why Amtrak is doing this. I don't think its a good idea, but that is near as I can tell is why they are doing it.

I believe that Amtrak estimates that it saves 4% on fuel costs by eliminating a car from the consist, so yes there is some savings by dropping the car.

OK, so taking that number, I did some quick math.

If Amtrak saves 4%, the the 1306 mile Texas Eagle would "save" $317 one way.

I would only guess the labor cost, but lets round to $683 one way ( I know that is high ).

SO: that would be $1000 for the one way.

Excluding food costs, I bet they cover that in sales easily.

 

[dan72]

I just back from spending six days traveling from Worcester, Ma to Fullerton, CA on the LSL and SWC in coach. While on the train, I noticed that there seemed to be an invisible dividing line between the lounge car and the dining car. Coach passengers "belonged" in the cafe car. Sleeper passengers "belonged" in the diner. I'm not saying that anybody onboard the train (crew or passenger) was enforcing this rule. (I was a coach passenger and ate more meals than I should have in the dining car.) It just seemed to be in the mind of the average coach passenger that their food came from the snack bar, or their own provisions. I saw very few sleeping car passengers in the lounge/sightseer car. I believe that they were enjoying the privacy that they purchased, and not among the unwashed masses in the sightseer car.

That is an interesting observation about the dividing line on the SWC. I guess I didn't notice it as much last May when my wife and took it (we did have a sleeping compartment on our trip). We did eat some meals with folks from coach and I personally spent a lot of time in the lounge, although it was not as busy as I thought it was. However my wife pretty much stayed in our compartment as she really enjoyed the quiet and did quite a bit of reading. I guess it varies by the personality of the train passengers that are on that particular day or days as well.

I also agree...getting rid of the lounge on western LD routes would be a BIG mistake. Here's another question: Will this also mean eventually getting rid of the national park guides that board the train and do a program in the lounge car?

Dan

 

[AlanB]

so let me get this straight: soon there will be no sightseer lounge cars on the ld trains??

Amtrak has never specifically stated that, but yes that would seem to be a logical conclusion based upon the moves being taken by Amtrak. Certainly the fact that assuming the test is deemed a success, they next plan to start converting Sightseer Lounges to Diner Lite cars, would lead one to conclude that the Sightseer Lounge will be history.

 

[x-press]

First off, let me clarify my personal position on lounge cars: I never use them when I have a sleeper. Never. I love the quiet privacy I have spent a small fortune on. For one night trips, I usually don't eat all the meals offered to me for free, either, pre- or post- diner-lite. I like dining cars, and certainly need SOME food on the train, but when there's a choice, I will always eat at a certifiably GREAT restaurant like Lou Mitchell's in Chicago or B. Smith's in DC.

Obviously, many or most people here don't share my philosophy, and that's fine.

Regardless of whether you love, hate, or don't care about the current diner/lounge arrangement, you have GOT to see the inefficiency of it! Dining cars are being hauled around empty for LONG parts of the trip. Between meal times, and of course late at night, you'll find only the conductor/assistant sitting in there. Lounge cars with attendant MIGHT break even for labor (though I doubt it), but they certainly contribute nothing to the train's bottom line. And that says nothing of the fuel, and much more importantly, the maintenance of the extra car that is revenue neutral at best. The inspections, the heavy repairs, the cleaning . . . that's where I think the money is.

Now, like diner lite, I'm not totally sold on Amtrak's method of changing this, yet. Some good (though not conclusive) arguments have been presented to me that diner lite loses more in revenue than it gains in reduced labor expenses. If true, obviously it's a bad idea. You could certainly make the argument that one dining/lounge car will not have capacity for enough passengers to eat. You could also argue that there may have been better ways of dealing with this (charge a "cover" to get in the lounge car and try to make it a revenue-producing, upscale experience, for example). I have no problem arguing with the methods, but blanket "the-sky-is-falling (again)" statements aren't going to help preserve long distance passenger rail.

Amtrak has not elminated a single service on these trains, and has not proposed elminating a single route (unless you want to count the non-functional eastern part of the Sunset). They still have food (albeit different). They still have lounge service (albeit different). At some point they will probably try to trim expenses on sleepers (one of my favorite things in the world) as well. I reserve the right to challenge their methods when they do, but I fully endorse the effort.

JPS