Amtrak testing diner-lounge prototype on Capitol Limited

[Guest_MontanaJim_*]

Amtrak has never specifically stated that, but yes that would seem to be a logical conclusion based upon the moves being taken by Amtrak. Certainly the fact that assuming the test is deemed a success, they next plan to start converting Sightseer Lounges to Diner Lite cars, would lead one to conclude that the Sightseer Lounge will be history.

So they will still use the existing sightseer lounges but cut them in half and have a diner in one part and the lounge in the other?

 

[AlanB]

I just back from spending six days traveling from Worcester, Ma to Fullerton, CA on the LSL and SWC in coach. While on the train, I noticed that there seemed to be an invisible dividing line between the lounge car and the dining car. Coach passengers "belonged" in the cafe car. Sleeper passengers "belonged" in the diner. I'm not saying that anybody onboard the train (crew or passenger) was enforcing this rule. (I was a coach passenger and ate more meals than I should have in the dining car.) It just seemed to be in the mind of the average coach passenger that their food came from the snack bar, or their own provisions. I saw very few sleeping car passengers in the lounge/sightseer car. I believe that they were enjoying the privacy that they purchased, and not among the unwashed masses in the sightseer car.

Edited for coherency

Rick

Makes sense to me. I usually stay in my room during the trip. But that does not stop me from a walk to the lounge car or even from buying something at the snack bar.

I would think if Amtrak wanted to increase Diner sales, they would simply close the Snack Bar during parts of meal times, offer a wider variety in the Diner (to include the microwave pizza if necessary) and "force" the Coach passengers to make the trip to the Diner. AND ADVERTISE THIS SERVICE. I always see one end of the Diner empty. ( On a side note, it always seems this empty space is taken over by crew as their personel space or storage areas. Not to be mean, but they have a break room in the Transistion)

As I said before, if the drop the Lounge Car, am I going to have to put up with the nonsense in the Diner.

Here's part of the problem with the idea of closing the lounge car for a period of time during the meal periods, not to mention a partial explanation for Rick's observations during his trip.

SDS

In a word, there is the problem. Consider the following math, a Superliner II sleeping car can hold 46 passengers. Now I'll subtract a few from that, since I'll assume that 2 people are in the accessable room and get served in their room, rather than the dining car. I'll subtract another 5 for singles traveling alone in a roomette, plus I'll even be generous and say that 1 more person just decides not to dine in the dining car for whatever reason.

That leaves us with 38 people from one sleeping car heading to the dining car for dinner. Double that, since most trains run with at least 2 sleeping cars, some have more, you now have 76 people who will take diner in the dining car. Based upon the SDS plan, the normal dining car (not the diner lite car), can only seat and serve 96 people for dinner.

So that leaves only 20 potential seats for perhaps as many as 225 passengers in the 3 coaches normally on most trains. If you're in coach, the odds of getting into the diner for dinner are not good at all.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak has never specifically stated that, but yes that would seem to be a logical conclusion based upon the moves being taken by Amtrak. Certainly the fact that assuming the test is deemed a success, they next plan to start converting Sightseer Lounges to Diner Lite cars, would lead one to conclude that the Sightseer Lounge will be history.

So they will still use the existing sightseer lounges but cut them in half and have a diner in one part and the lounge in the other?

No the existing Sightseer lounges will eventually go through Beech Grove and be remodeled at a cost even higher than the diner conversions to be exactly like the new Diner Lite car about to enter service. To my knowledge, I'm not positive, but I believe that the huge windows will be removed from the Sightseer Lounge cars and windows similar to the dining car's will be installed.

 

[x-press]

To my knowledge, I'm not positive, but I believe that the huge windows will be removed from the Sightseer Lounge cars and windows similar to the dining car's will be installed.

I don't think that's true. The rendering shown here doesn't think so (scroll down):

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01092006.shtml

Don't get me wrong, I'm not too keen on that arrangement; it reminds me of the Acela Express bar stools that you can barely sit on (and no one uses). But to remove the windows would be a truly massive rebuilding for no conceivable purpose.

 

[Chatter163]

I just back from spending six days traveling from Worcester, Ma to Fullerton, CA on the LSL and SWC in coach. While on the train, I noticed that there seemed to be an invisible dividing line between the lounge car and the dining car. Coach passengers "belonged" in the cafe car. Sleeper passengers "belonged" in the diner. I'm not saying that anybody onboard the train (crew or passenger) was enforcing this rule. (I was a coach passenger and ate more meals than I should have in the dining car.) It just seemed to be in the mind of the average coach passenger that their food came from the snack bar, or their own provisions. I saw very few sleeping car passengers in the lounge/sightseer car. I believe that they were enjoying the privacy that they purchased, and not among the unwashed masses in the sightseer car.

The last line is presumptious and possibly even offensive. It speculates on what is going on in people's minds, and its inferences are based solely on someone's preconceived notions.

 

[rmgreenesq]

The last line is presumptious and possibly even offensive. It speculates on what is going on in people's minds, and its inferences are based solely on someone's preconceived notions.

Chatter:

Please forgive me if I have offended you. I was writing my opinion based on my observations of human behavior for six days on Amtrak. You may ascribe it whatever value you see fit.

As to the use of the term "unwashed masses" I was speaking literally, not figurativly. I'd just spent three days on a train. I did my best to clean up in the men's room in Chicago, but after three days on a train, I felt rather unwashed.

Alan:

Amtrak is not really in the position to question Congress. Like a military order, Congress told Amtrak to cut $100m in food "losses". Amtrak salutes, says yes sir! and figures out a way to do it. We can debate the wisdom of Congress (I've seen them do stupider things), but I was under the impression that this thread was about the implementation of Congresses mandate.

As to the cost of rehabing the 12 cars, I'd hope that Amtrak found the 12 nastiest, most in need of rehab cars to perform this little experiment. Then at least the $3m would have gone to cars that truly needed the rehab. I'm not holding my breath that Amtrak's fleet management folks did, but that is my hope.

As to the idea that Amtrak looks to cut costs by cutting staff, I'd bet you a donut that labor savings will be the big money saver of Diner Lite. Amtrak's wage levels are frozen by their CBAs, and it is unlikely that Amtrak's unionized workforce would agree to lower salaries to save jobs. So Diner Lite is the "best" solution Amtrak can come up with given the constraints of their business and their Congressional mandate.

Finally, Mrs. rmgreenesq came up with a couple of suggestions to stem the losses over lunch. One was a casino car!

Bat 51:

Thanks for the kind comments about the blog. I blogged on the way back too. I would have posted on the way back, but my friends contacted me to say that my postings were too long and to put them behind a cut. Since I'm using a cell phone to get the internet, I wasn't really able to do that, so I did not post them. I'm putting a trip report together. I'm trying to edit it down. Its presently at 9200 words.

Rick

 

[Rafi]

Chatter:
Please forgive me if I have offended you. I was writing my opinion based on my observations of human behavior for six days on Amtrak. You may ascribe it whatever value you see fit.

As to the use of the term "unwashed masses" I was speaking literally, not figurativly. I'd just spent three days on a train. I did my best to clean up in the men's room in Chicago, but after three days on a train, I felt rather unwashed.

Rick,

I think most of us understood the context of your observations. Not to worry.

Bat 51:
Thanks for the kind comments about the blog. I blogged on the way back too. I would have posted on the way back, but my friends contacted me to say that my postings were too long and to put them behind a cut. Since I'm using a cell phone to get the internet, I wasn't really able to do that, so I did not post them. I'm putting a trip report together. I'm trying to edit it down. Its presently at 9200 words.

Rick

Frankly, I think most of the folks here don't mind the length, and I, too, was looking forward to following the entire trip via your blog. Well done!

-Rafi

 

[eliyahu]

Regardless of whether you love, hate, or don't care about the current diner/lounge arrangement, you have GOT to see the inefficiency of it! Dining cars are being hauled around empty for LONG parts of the trip. Between meal times, and of course late at night, you'll find only the conductor/assistant sitting in there. Lounge cars with attendant MIGHT break even for labor (though I doubt it), but they certainly contribute nothing to the train's bottom line. And that says nothing of the fuel, and much more importantly, the maintenance of the extra car that is revenue neutral at best. The inspections, the heavy repairs, the cleaning . . . that's where I think the money is.
Now, like diner lite, I'm not totally sold on Amtrak's method of changing this, yet. Some good (though not conclusive) arguments have been presented to me that diner lite loses more in revenue than it gains in reduced labor expenses. If true, obviously it's a bad idea. You could certainly make the argument that one dining/lounge car will not have capacity for enough passengers to eat. You could also argue that there may have been better ways of dealing with this (charge a "cover" to get in the lounge car and try to make it a revenue-producing, upscale experience, for example). I have no problem arguing with the methods, but blanket "the-sky-is-falling (again)" statements aren't going to help preserve long distance passenger rail.

hear hear. although i'm not particularly pleased with the prototype photos circulating of the first diner/lounge car, i cannot fault amtrak's motivation. i have never quibbled with the need to support amtrak's capital costs, but certainly anything the corporation can do to at least break-even on an operational basis is something we must support if there is to be any future to long-distance rail travel in the US. i realize the loss of a dedicated lounge car is a hard pill to swallow -- as is changing the 'ambiance' provided by dining cars -- but i would certainly rather have a one diner/lounge car than none at all.

frankly, i would prefer they combine the sightseer lounges with dining services than a dining car with lounge service, actually. the loss of those huge windows allowing a sweeping view of the passing countryside would be a terrible shame, although if they haven't fully committed to this concept, i'd rather them 'ruin' dining cars than sightseers during the 'experimental' phase of the rollout.

although i consider a sleeper to be a requirement for anything travelling overnight, i still find the lounge cars a great place to stretch out and a vital component of the overall train travel experience. it would be great if they could run them with only the upper-level and unstaffed. but if amtrak says the incremental costs of doing so are too great in the long-term, then that's it. i would accept that. i won't stop using amtrak because of this, and for all of the hyperbole floating around various railfan boards on this subject lately, i doubt many other customers would either.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx

 

[battalion51]

I believe the plan is to convert some Diners and some Sightseer Lounges for SDS use. The ex-Diners I believe will be used on less scenic routes like the CONO and Eagle, while former SL's will be used on scenic routes like the CZ.

 

[Palmland]

As I understand it, this is not for all LD trains - but ones that are one night out and/or carry a lighter passenger load. If done right diner-lounge cars can be attractive and functional. Some of my better train rides were in the diner-lounge cars on the likes of the SRR Pelican and Birmingham Special. Sleeping car passengers who have the privacy of their rooms for 'lounging' will notice this change less especially on a train like the City of New Orleans with no spectacular scenery and a relatively short trip. No doubt one car instead of two will save equipment and labor cost which is not a bad thing for most companies - if they can retain the revenue.

So I am willing to wait and see if Amtrak can 'do it right' and if the resulting surplus cars will be used for other trains (like Jax-NOL restoration) or simply put into storage.

 

[battalion51]

I believe the only LD's that will retain true Diners once the plan is fully implemented is the Empire Builder, maybe the Starlight, and Auto Train. All other services will convert. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[daveyb99]

One problem with all this Diner changes: this will NEVER result in ANY reduction of the avg 1.3BIL net loss Amtrak suffers ever year.

So how do you reduce that loss? I am no MBAt, but cutting the Lounge Car and going to Diner Lite sure make not one bit of sense. (Of course, Congressional mandates do not always make sense --- but Nov 2006 changed that thank goodness)

Running ON TIME, quality service, and good financial oversight are the starting points. However, Amtrak was likely too fragmented to make that work. Can Alex Kummant do something about it? Maybe. Will the new DOT Secretary Mary Peters do something? I hope.

Bottom line, and something everyone needs to realize: Amtrak will never close that financial gap short of shutting down. Most transit agencies do not cover costs through fares, and Amtrak is no different.

With the new Congress and more Amtrak supporters now in office, maybe some sanity will return to the directives given Amtrak. And Amtrak can get to the business of making money......

 

[Sam Damon]

Alan did a bit of number crunching concerning Diner Lite, or SDS to be more precise, elsewhere on this forum. Someone's playing with numbers, and doesn't seem to care.

IIRC, L. Graham Claytor of Southern used to say words to the effect of, "First class (as in sleeper) service paid for everything above the rail." I have to wonder why the same cannot be true with Amtrak. Someone's playing with numbers, I think.

 

[PRR 60]

For the record, the Sightseer conversions will retain the panoramic and roofline windows. The plan is to ultimately use the Sightseer conversions on trains with more scenic routes and the Diner conversions on the other trains.

 

[AlanB]

IIRC, L. Graham Claytor of Southern used to say words to the effect of, "First class (as in sleeper) service paid for everything above the rail." I have to wonder why the same cannot be true with Amtrak. Someone's playing with numbers, I think.

While it doesn't help the diner and the lounge car, NARP just did a recent number crunching that proved that the sleepers covered all the extra operational costs associated with them. There is still some subsidy for the railfare portion of a sleeper ticket, however that subsidy is less than what is given to a coach passenger for the same distance traveled.

 

[yarrow]

are the converted sightseer cars going to be like(on the upper level anyway)what they are for the past year or so on the eb(half tables,half seats)? that sure won't work capacity wise as we often can't get a spot in the lounge as it si now and we travel in the off season.

 

[AlanB]

are the converted sightseer cars going to be like(on the upper level anyway)what they are for the past year or so on the eb(half tables,half seats)? that sure won't work capacity wise as we often can't get a spot in the lounge as it si now and we travel in the off season.

AFAIK, the converted Sightseer lounge cars will look basically identical to the pictures of the dining car posted elsewhere on this forum, other than of course the better windows.

 

[Guest]

Some how this doesn't seem like enough time to find and work out all the kinks.

I want to make sure I understand this. Amtrak is removing an entire car built for relaxation, a place where people can meet and greet, kids can play table games, or you can just sit and relax.

... and instead, just to save a little $$$, putting on a half-and-half thing whereby those wanting a place to relax and the kids to roam will rumble around me trying to eat my $20 steak diner.

Seems a little short-sighted................

Didnt the steaks leave the menu with SDS ???

 

[yarrow]

they still grill delicious steaks on the empire buider which hasn't gone to sds yet.

 

[AlanB]

they still grill delicious steaks on the empire buider which hasn't gone to sds yet.

And occasionally the nightly special is the country fried steak.

 

[amtrakmichigan]

So if Amtrak removes 1 of the 2 food service cars, what will happen to the other half that will no longer have a place in a consist? I have always thought that all LD trains should have Business Class service. Amtrak does not offer anything in between first class and coach on any LD trains. I think there would be a great demand for a "second class" (business class) type of service on LD trains. Many coach passengers may not have the funds to upgrade to a $150 - $1000 sleeper. These same passengers may be more then happy to spend $50 - 75 for a business class seat. So why not convert the left over lounge/diners to business class service? It would give Amtrak an additional source of revenue.

I would continue to give sleeper passengers free meals in the diner. I would then include free meals in the CAFE/LOUNGE for business class, and then let coach passengers decide which type of food service they would like and pay cash as it is today.

To add a personel thought...

Something is WRONG if you are lossing $100 million a year in food service with such a captive audience that Amtrak has, especially on LD trains. A typical LD train probably has 150 - 300 passengers at any given time for an average of 2 days. People have to eat and they can't jump off a train to eat at a Burger King on the side of a track at dinner time. So why can't Amtrak turn a profit on food and beverage service? I would think it would be that the union salary and benefits of food service employees could have a big role in the red ink on the annual food service ballance sheet. Living in the metro Detroit area I'm all for the union workers salary and benefits. But even the American auto makers here in Detroit are practicaly having to turn to "Wal-mart type labor practices" to try to make a buck. Will Amtrak have to make such a drastic change in union relations and labor practices to at least break even? I hope not, but it almost seems that the union worker and his/her good salary and benefits will just be a part of history.

 

[battalion51]

I just got NARP News for October-November 2006 (thank you mail forwarding for your timely service :blink: ), and there is an article on the topic. Highlights to follow:

• "When we first reported this we said 'Superliner diner-lounges will be based on exsisting Sightseer Lounges, although peak seaons will find two diner-lounges on the biggest train, the second based on the exsisting Superliner Diner.' Amtrak has not decided which or how many trains will need (or have) two diner-lounges."
  
• "Amtrak plans to run one diner-based prototype diner-lounge on the Capitol Limited...before converting 17 more such cars...Necessary adjustments will be be identified."
  
• "Conversion of 40 Sightseer Superliner lounges...will be contracted out to the private sector. The intent is to let the contract in the spring of 2007."
  
• "Plans for single-level trains, still tenative, include maintaing traditional service with Amfleet Lounge and Heritage diners on Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor. Other single level trains may just have one converted Amfleet Dinette/Lounge car."
  

 

[yarrow]

I just got NARP News for October-November 2006 (thank you mail forwarding for your timely service :blink: ), and there is an article on the topic. Highlights to follow:

• "When we first reported this we said 'Superliner diner-lounges will be based on exsisting Sightseer Lounges, although peak seaons will find two diner-lounges on the biggest train, the second based on the exsisting Superliner Diner.' Amtrak has not decided which or how many trains will need (or have) two diner-lounges."
  
• "Amtrak plans to run one diner-based prototype diner-lounge on the Capitol Limited...before converting 17 more such cars...Necessary adjustments will be be identified."
  
• "Conversion of 40 Sightseer Superliner lounges...will be contracted out to the private sector. The intent is to let the contract in the spring of 2007."
  
• "Plans for single-level trains, still tenative, include maintaing traditional service with Amfleet Lounge and Heritage diners on Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor. Other single level trains may just have one converted Amfleet Dinette/Lounge car."
  

if they run 2 converted diner lounges what is the difference between running one diner and one lounge as they do now? not much savings after the expense of conversion even if they can just run one dinette/lounge at times.

(edited to fix quote - AmtrakWPK)

 

[battalion51]

It seems like based on the language in the article that the cars that retain the two cars will be routes that have heavy patronage, and possibly only during heavy travel periods. The reason why you go ahead and convert all the cars and eliminate Dining Car service all together is you are still gaining the crew reductions (no Chefs or Waiters are needed), you are providing consistent service across the country, and you are able to offer meals at any time to passengers.

 

[Rafi]

The SDS prototype is sitting on track 16 in WAS as of this morning, coupled to a standard Superliner coach car. I contacted NARP, and it appears that the car is being used for training this week since it's going to be starting up its run in the next week or so. I'm working on getting a chance to take a look and some pictures in the next few days/weeks with NARP's help; I'll post any results here (no promises yet!).

-Rafi