Amtrak through Phoenix

[Greg]

I understand that the reason Amtrak no longer runs through Phoenix is because the line west of Phoenix is not being maitained by UP. My question is: Why did UP abandon the line west of Phoenix? Doesn't that pose problems for UP moving freight west of Phoenix? For west-bound freight, UP has to go sout to Maricopa to pickup the mainline to LAX, right?

As a second question, are there any discussions going on with Amtrak, UP, and/or Arizona to reinstate the line between Phoenix and the UP mainline, or is that we can never expect Amtrak to return to Phoenix?

Thanks in advance for informative replies!

 

[George Harris]

I think that if you do a search on this subject you could find quite a bit of information. Unless it is put on rubber tires, the freight does not go to Maricopa. It goes to Piccacho which is where the Phoenix line east meets the main line. An analysis was probably made of the cost of the additional fuel, crew time, etc balanced against the cost of keeping the line west in service. If reduced maintenance cost was greater than the increased operating cost, then it became essentially a no-brainer of a decision. It is also likely that the line west was approaching the need for significant work. This could well have been the tipping point.

So far as I know, the line west is not abandoned. It is simply "out of service" Thus, UP has not relinquised the right of way nor the right to operate a railroad on it. Should it become in their interest to reopen it, the work will be done to make it happen. Amtrak is not going to open their checkbook to spend millions on a line used by one train each way three ties a week. Likewise, it appears that Arizona has little to no interest in spending money or rail passenger service of any kind.

 

[the_traveler]

As I understand it, UP does not have any customers on that line west of Phoenix, so it did not justify them paying $$$$ per year just so Amtrak could operate a train on that line 3 times a week. (Not even daily!) I do not know if there are any current talks of retuning to Phoenix. I think Central Station in Phoenix and the former Mesa station are now privately owned!

 

[zephyr17]

Also, it seems that over the last few decades there has been little profit in short haul freight for RRs. The breakeven point is around 800 miles, IIRC. So they simply are not very interested in Phoenix-California freight. Plus anything they do have would not be time sensitive or it would go by truck, so why not take it down to Picacho Jct. instead of paying to maintain a very lightly used line?

There was some talk about running directionally on it at some point a few years ago, but they are double tracking the mainline through Maricopa instead.

BTW-of historical note, the mainline has always been the line through Maricopa and Gila Bend. They did not build the line west of Phoenix until the 1920s, and it was mainly for passenger service when they did.

 

[rusty spike]

As I understand it, UP does not have any customers on that line west of Phoenix, so it did not justify them paying $$$$ per year just so Amtrak could operate a train on that line 3 times a week. (Not even daily!) I do not know if there are any current talks of retuning to Phoenix. I think Central Station in Phoenix and the former Mesa station are now privately owned!

The old Union Station in Phoenix is still intact, even down to the waiting room oak benches and bagage carts, but the building is now owned by Sprint Communications, which uses it for transmission of its communication network, and is closed to the public.

The Mesa Southern Pacific Depot was torn down years ago after a fire gutted it. Nothing left but a concrete slab.

The line between Phoenix and Wellton, where it rejoins the UP Golden State route, is out of service. Last I knew, the UP was storing unneeded empty freight cars on it. And yes, Amtrak was about the only user of that segmant for its 3-times-a-week SL/TE. Now Phoenix area pax have to "self-transfer" to Maricopa (MRC) 30 miles south of downtown Phoenix to catch the SL/TE, giving Phoenix the dubious honor of being American's largest city without direct Amtrak service.

 

[rusty spike]

I understand that the reason Amtrak no longer runs through Phoenix is because the line west of Phoenix is not being maitained by UP. My question is: Why did UP abandon the line west of Phoenix? Doesn't that pose problems for UP moving freight west of Phoenix? For west-bound freight, UP has to go sout to Maricopa to pickup the mainline to LAX, right?

As a second question, are there any discussions going on with Amtrak, UP, and/or Arizona to reinstate the line between Phoenix and the UP mainline, or is that we can never expect Amtrak to return to Phoenix?

Thanks in advance for informative replies!

The line is still active by the UP, but presently is being used to store unused freight cars for the RR. Basically, it cost too much to maintain for Amtrak usage as UP freight trains bound for Phoenix (and there are'nt many) diverge at Picacho and go Northwest into Phoenix, where they have good-sized yard. They go out the same way either headed East or West at the Picacho junction.

Maricopa is the current Amtrak stop. There is no branchline from Maricopa, although there was at one time a long time ago.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What I am confused about is why the Phoenix line was suspended when the Maricopa line was not. They could have used the Maricopa line to store railcars.

 

[don manchester]

I recall that the Phoenix line was used by Amtrak until someone blew up the track several years ago. Amtrak them started going throught Maracopa.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

What I am confused about is why the Phoenix line was suspended when the Maricopa line was not. They could have used the Maricopa line to store railcars.

Because it saves probably close to fifty miles.

We could actually see return of service to Phoenix in the next decade, but it would be in the form of a Phoenix-Tucson corridor. The corridor would do very well with the bilevels because the straightness of most of the route would make 110 running achievable, and the demand would be good for the two-story, multiple-door cars. The only real barrier is the state government.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I recall that the Phoenix line was used by Amtrak until someone blew up the track several years ago. Amtrak them started going throught Maracopa.

I don't think that was the case. I think some terrorits derailed the SL, but that probably did not cause the route change.

Because it saves probably close to fifty miles.

Now that actually makes sense. Nice to know since, as i have said before, I don't know much about the rail lines California.

 

[PRR 60]

I recall that the Phoenix line was used by Amtrak until someone blew up the track several years ago. Amtrak them started going throught Maracopa.

The sabotage of the Sunset Limited (not an explosion - rail was loosened) was not really related to Amtrak leaving the route through Phoenix, although the incident occurred just 8 months before the reroute.

The old Phoenix line is an out-of-the-way routing for through Union Pacific trains. The vast majority of the traffic on the Sunset Route is not destined for or originating in Phoenix. Given the choice, the UP preferred the shorter route that bypassed Phoenix. Amtrak was offered the option to fund the on-going maintenance of the Phoenix line, but could not justify the expense, so that was that.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I recall that the Phoenix line was used by Amtrak until someone blew up the track several years ago. Amtrak them started going throught Maracopa.

I don't think that was the case. I think some terrorits derailed the SL, but that probably did not cause the route change.

Because it saves probably close to fifty miles.

Now that actually makes sense. Nice to know since, as i have said before, I don't know much about the rail lines California.

Cough cough Arizona but thanks, I get the point.

 

[rusty spike]

What I am confused about is why the Phoenix line was suspended when the Maricopa line was not. They could have used the Maricopa line to store railcars.

The branch line you are confused with regarding Maricopa was operated by the Arizona Eastern RR, a SP subsidiary, and was abandoned a long, long time ago, sometime during the 1940's.

The line that is 'out-of-service" is the western leg of a loop created by the Southern Pacific specifically to service Phoenix, since it was never on the main line running from Tucson, thru Casa Grande, Gila Bend to Yuma.

The eastern leg of this loop is the one remaining leg of this loop, now operated by the UP into Phoenix.

 

The town of Maricopa was chosen as a Amtrak stop because it is the closest in proximity to the metro Phoenix area.

It consist of an Amshack, a short concrete platform, and on display there is a Dome-Obs car off the original California Zephyr. It actually served as the Amtrak station before the Amshack was moved in there.

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Now Phoenix area pax have to "self-transfer" to Maricopa (MRC) 30 miles south of downtown Phoenix to catch the SL/TE, giving Phoenix the dubious honor of being American's largest city without direct Amtrak service.

I'd say it's worse than "indirect" service if it's impossible to book it with a thruway bus connection on Amtrak.com. What's Amtrak's reasoning for abandoning the former follow-on connection through Tuscon?

 

[henryj]

What I am confused about is why the Phoenix line was suspended when the Maricopa line was not. They could have used the Maricopa line to store railcars.

Because it saves probably close to fifty miles.

We could actually see return of service to Phoenix in the next decade, but it would be in the form of a Phoenix-Tucson corridor. The corridor would do very well with the bilevels because the straightness of most of the route would make 110 running achievable, and the demand would be good for the two-story, multiple-door cars. The only real barrier is the state government.

The track that is out of service is Phoenix west to Yuma(and LAX). The east side, Phoenix to Tucson is still active. Azdot has studied service in both directions, but Phoenix to Tucson has the most potential. Currently Greyhound runs several departures between the two cities daily.

 

[rusty spike]

Now Phoenix area pax have to "self-transfer" to Maricopa (MRC) 30 miles south of downtown Phoenix to catch the SL/TE, giving Phoenix the dubious honor of being American's largest city without direct Amtrak service.

I'd say it's worse than "indirect" service if it's impossible to book it with a thruway bus connection on Amtrak.com. What's Amtrak's reasoning for abandoning the former follow-on connection through Tuscon?

IIRC, the Thruway to Tucson was a temporary fix when the direct Amtrak service to PHX was terminated, Amtrak needed time to get an agreement from the UP to put in a station (platform) at Maricopa, a location chosen because, at 38 miles, it is the closest point to PHX along the UP main line thru AZ.

Unfortunately it is not on a route served by Greyhound or even any local transit system, and Amtrak has been unsuccessful in trying to contract with any local private shuttle service, leaving pax to either take a cab (about $50 from PHX) or drive down on their own and leave their car in a gravel, unsecured parking lot by the AmShack. I have done that without incident, but then I drive an 8-yr. old Hyundai. According to the station agent, they have not yet had a problem with people doing that. hboy:

 

[Greginphx]

Thanks, everyone, for the very informative replies! I really appreciate knowing the facts about this situation. In the end, although Phoenix is probably the only major city without direct Amtrak service, the real reason is that Phoenix is probably the only major city without mainline rail running through it, huh?

Thanks again!

-Greg

 

[bretton88]

The track in question is a small segment (about 50 miles) of track between Yuma and Phoenix (Gila Bend area). The rest of the west line is still in service, but at speeds unacceptable to passenger trains (by Yuma the UP serves a big cattle company, and on the Phoenix end, the UP still has some local customers). The main issue is there is no need for the UP to operate through freight service, so they keep the Gila Bend section out of service. Even if they brought it back into service, traffic dictates that they would only need to bring it up to local speeds, so 50mph max, maybe even unsignaled. So the only hope for this line to ever see amtrak again is for state money or a persuasive case for a TIGER grant (which I can not think of right now). Since I really can never see the demand for a local train between Yuma and Phoenix (and there really is nothing in between those two cities), the chances of Amtrak returning to Phoenix is pretty much zero. Maybe if LA-Phoenix HSR ever came to be, you might see this corridor back in service, but that service is pretty much a pipe dream right now.

 

[pldenc44]

Arizona is doing a study on rail transit between Tucson and Phoenix. If approved and built, it appears the project would be run by AZDOT and Amtrak would have nothing to do with it. Passengers would have to ride the new rail to Maricopa and jump on the Amtrak from there.

http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/

Also, UP is trying to build an enormous rail depot near that area at Picacho Peak (potentially 74 tracks wide).

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2012/07/01/20120701picacho-peak-train-yard-sought.html

I've also noticed a lot of track upgrades currently in progress between Tucson and Picacho peak. They're installing a new line with concrete rail ties alongside existing track. Not sure if Amtrak will benefit from these upgrades or not.

 

[George Harris]

OK, there are several what is where discussions bouncing around here, some of which have deficiencies in geography and railroads. Here is the "what is where" concerning the east-west railroads across southern Arizona, or more specifically between Yuma and Tucson. My source of information is primarily a Union Pacific employee timetable form October 2007. At that time all their employee timetables were on line and publically accessible. That is no longer true. That is to say, what is here is from sources that are or were publically accessible, and not from any inside knowledge.

Mileposting on this railroad increases from west to east to as faar east as El Paso, beyond which the mileposts are increasing in the east west direction.

The Main line between Yuma and Tucson, through Maricopa, bypassing Phoenix:

milepost Location/town

732.4 Yuma

770.7 Wellton (connection to west end of Phoenix Line)

897.7 Maricopa (may be +/- about a mile)

936.7 Picacho (connection to east end of Phoenix Line)

984.6 Tucson Amtrak (maybe +/- about 0.2 mile)

1295.9 El Paso Amtrak (maybe +/- about 0.2 mile)

note that the distance between Wellton and Picacho by the main line is 165.9 miles

Speed Limit between Yuma and Tucson is 79P/65F eastbound and 79P/70F westbound. I have no idea why the difference.

The Line through Phoenix:

770.7 Wellton (begin Phoenix Line)

906.0 Phoenix

979.7 Picacho (end Phoenix Line)

Note that this line is 209.0 miles between points where it connects with the main line. Therefore, it is 43 miles longer than the main line.

The condition of the line as of 2007 was as follows:

mile 770.7 to 802.8, 32.1 miles: "Roll Industrial Lead" speed limit 20 mph.

mile 802.8 to 854.0, 51.2 miles: Out of service

mile 854.0 to 904.8, 50.8 miles: 25 mph (That would mean FRA class 2 track conditions.)

mile 904.8 to 907.9, 3.1 miles: part at 20 mph, part at 15 mph.

mile 907.9 to 913.6, 5.7 miles: 25 mph

mile 913.6 to 916.5, 2.9 miles: 20 mph

beyond here in the remainin 63 miles to Picacho, even though the listed maximum speed is 60 mph, about half of it is 40 mph or less.

To be able to return the Sunset to this line would require major work which is not justifiable for a train tht only runs 3 daus per week.

the Union Pacific is in the precess of double tracking the full length of the Sunset Route between Los Angeles and El Paso. as of the 2007 employee timetable, the entire Tucson to El Paso distance ahs two main tracks. there were several sections west of Tucson in place then, adn there has been quite a bit more constructed since, but where exactly, I do not know.

Yes, this double tracking is helping the operation of the Sunset. Firstly, it is doing much better at keeping schedule. Second, with the last Amtrak timetable issue, it was speeded up from its pace of the last few years.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Hey George, just guessing it at about 50 miles, I wasn't more than 7 off! pretty good. Thank you for posting that info. The track speeds were really helpful. I was surprised by how slow the track is and it gives me a much better understanding of just how much it would take to restore this service.

 

[Aaron]

Arizona is doing a study on rail transit between Tucson and Phoenix. If approved and built, it appears the project would be run by AZDOT and Amtrak would have nothing to do with it. Passengers would have to ride the new rail to Maricopa and jump on the Amtrak from there.

ADOT would be funding the project, but there's no reason that ADOT couldn't contract with Amtrak to run it similar to California or any other state. And, only one of the proposed routes goes through Maricopa, and three of them go through Casa Grande (http://www.azdot.gov/passengerrail/pdf/CombinedAlternatives.pdf). I suspect that if state supported passenger rail were running from Phoenix to Tucson through Casa Grande, the Amtrak station could/would be moved to Casa Grande to provide a logical transfer point. I recently read an article mentioning there's already a possibility of that happening anyway.

 

[fredmcain]

I recall that the Phoenix line was used by Amtrak until someone blew up the track several years ago. Amtrak them started going throught Maracopa.

The sabotage of the Sunset Limited (not an explosion - rail was loosened) was not really related to Amtrak leaving the route through Phoenix, although the incident occurred just 8 months before the reroute.
The old Phoenix line is an out-of-the-way routing for through Union Pacific trains. The vast majority of the traffic on the Sunset Route is not destined for or originating in Phoenix. Given the choice, the UP preferred the shorter route that bypassed Phoenix. Amtrak was offered the option to fund the on-going maintenance of the Phoenix line, but could not justify the expense, so that was that.

Actually, The Southern Pacific that built these lines ALWAYS favored the Gila route for transcontinental traffic. The Phoenix subdivision (Picacho-Phoenix-Welton) was built in the 1920s to allow cross-country passenger trains to call at Phoenix. In pre-1950 days, the SP did a thriving business carrying "snowbirds" into the Salt River Valley from the frost belt. This business declined in the late 1950s and '60s with the general downturn in passenger trains.

The Southern Pacific Transportation Co. (SPT) also once did a thriving freight business from west coast points to Phoenix over the line. In the immediate post WWII era, the SPT Co hauled innumerable loads of lumber out of the Pacific Northwest to feed the Salt River Valley's post WWII housing boom.

Also, hot refer blocks that originated in the Imperial Valley or Central Valley would sometimes use the line on their way east, make a quick stop at Phoenix and have more refers added of fruits and vegetables that were grown in the Salt River Valley. The conversion of the refer business from refer cars to regfridgerated TOFC equipment put a hex on that traffic.

But I believe that today, the defunct but intact West Phoenix line represents a major gap or "hole" in our Nation's infrastructure. I have reason to suspect that the UP has fully intended to restore the line all along (They have been maintaining and even REPLACING signals between Arlington and Phoenix and in the Roll area) but it's just that bigger and more pressing issues keep pushing this off onto the back burner.

It has been said that Phoenix-LA is too short a corridor for intermodal. Although there may be some truth to that, it is most certainly NOT too short for the SEATAC-Phoenix market not to mention Prince Rupert or Vancouver to Phoenix. Remember, Phoenix is mostly a consumer city and a lot of containers come in from Asia and call at those ports. The UP is neglecting a major piece of market here to their detriment and I have written them stating as much.

BUT ! ! ! ! Think about this: When and if the UP restores the line, don't assume that Amtrak will jump to bring the Sunset back to line. Just look at how long it's taking them to restore the Gulf Coast end of the run. In my own personal, honest, humble opinion, there is NO excuse for this although that might be a subject for a different thread.

Will the West Phoenix line come back from the dead? I think so but we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[the_traveler]

Please note that the last entries in this thread were made in 2012. Please continue discussion in the current open thread regarding Phoenix and Amtrak. Thank you!