Amtrak Thruway bus changes on 10/27 timetable

[Superliner Diner]

The October 27th timetable brought about many changes. Those involving the AMTRAK trains have been documented elsewhere. Now that I've had a chance to study how the connecting Thruway system looks, I will share that with you here. This is what has changed:

8143/8144 cancelled -- This Greyhound-operated Thruway bus ran between Washington, DC and Pittsburgh, PA, connecting to Train 43 and from Train 44. When the PENNSYLVANIAN had the less desirable schedule with the very early Philadelphia departure and post-midnight Philadelphia arrival, this was an attractive alternative to waiting several hours for connections at Philadelphia. This run also served Hagerstown and Frederick, MD. It has been replaced with....

8240/8241 started -- This bus is operated by Greyhound also, and it connects with the THREE RIVERS (from 40 and to 41) at Pittsburgh instead of the PENNSYLVANIAN. For some reason, although the bus probably does originate and terminate in Washington, the Thruway program is only good to Hagerstown and Frederick. If you're thinking about a connection at Frederick with the one-year-old MARC commuter service, it would require an overnight stay in either direction.

4751/4752 cancelled -- This bus ran between Eugene, OR and Ashland, OR, and was cancelled due to low ridership. It connected with a southbound Thruway bus that in turn connected from what used to be Train 751 (now 501), and to Train 552, which is now 504.

4761/4780 started -- This weekend-only pair runs between Santa Barbara, CA, San Luis Obispo, and Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. It connects with weekend-only Pacific Surfliners 761 and 780.

4769/4796 to be extended 12/14 -- As discussed elsewhere, this bus pair will be extended beyond San Luis Obispo and Paso Robles to serve San Jose and San Francisco. It connects daily at Santa Barbara with Pacific Surfliners 769 and 796.

5103/5104 cancelled -- This pair ran between Needles, CA and Lake Havasu City, AZ. It connected with the SOUTHWEST CHIEF in both directions at Needles. The same company still operates a Thruway shuttle between Needles and the Las Vegas Airport as 5003/5004.

5665 through 5695 cancelled -- This series of buses connected with the Pacific Surfliners at San Juan Capistrano, and served Laguna Beach and Long Beach. This was a connection for the benefit of those going to or from San Diego. One can still get to Long Beach by going through Los Angeles, either by Thruway bus (see below) or the Blue Line.

5701 through 5718 no longer serve Laguna Beach -- These buses connect with the SAN JOAQUINS at Bakersfield, and run to Los Angeles. They still serve Long Beach and go onward to San Pedro.

5728 through 5764 renumbered -- This was done to reflect the Cascades renumberings. They are now in the 5500 series. These buses run between Eugene, OR and Portland, and between Portland and Astoria, OR.

8750 through 8753 started -- These two new Greyhound-operated round trips run between Redding, CA and Eureka, CA. One pair connects with the COAST STARLIGHT at Redding (from 11 and to 14), while the other pair connects with another Thruway bus that goes to Sacramento and hooks up with the SAN JOAQUIN. They are erroneously shown on Page 55 of the National timetable as 6650 through 6653.

8440 through 8447 started -- These Greyhound-operated trips run between Salt Lake City, UT and Boise, ID, finally filling another gap that was left with the demise of the old PIONEER. There are connections at Boise with other Thruway bus runs that connect with the Cascades and COAST STARLIGHT in Portland. At Salt Lake City, bus 8440 provides a connection from Train 5. while 8447 connects to Train 6.

8224 through 8229 started -- More Greyhound-operated Thruway buses, running between Spokane, WA and Portland, OR. They provide service at more convenient times of day than the EMPIRE BUILDER (27/28).

8950 through 8955 renumbered -- These buses that run between Seattle and Vancouver, BC were redesignated in the 8900-8909 series to reflect the Cascades train renumbering. The trip shown on Page 44 of the National timetable as 8955 should be 8909.

For my updated numerical listing of all AMTRAK Thruway bus runs, click here.

 

[jccollins]

This is great reference information. Thank you for providing it in such a neat, readable format. I really wish Amtrak would provide a thruway bus from the Maricopa, AZ Amtrak Station (a tri-weekly stop on the Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle route) into Phoenix with multiple stops in the intercity area. It is difficult to take Amtrak to Phoenix if you don't have family there that can pick you up at the Maricopa Amtrak Station 30 minutes south of the city. The station in Maricopa, while staffed by Amtrak Tuesday through Saturday, is really just out in the middle of the desert. There is no other public transportation that serves the station, no taxis (even if someone was willing to pay a costly fee to go into Phoenix), and no rental cars closer to the station than Phoenix. This is a SERIOUS problem since Maricopa is the closest Amtrak Station to the city. It just doesn't make sense. Amtrak used to provide a thruway bus to Phoenix when Tuscon was the closest station on the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle route, but this was eliminated when the Maricopa station opened.

When I contacted Amtrak about this problem, they advised I take the Southwest Chief from LAX to Flagstaff, AZ and then the thruway that meets the Chief in Flagstaff to Phoenix. It is a 2.5 to 3 hour bus ride from Flagstaff. WHY would a bus be provided from the distant Flagstaff to Phoenix instead of the closer (30 mi) Maricopa to Phoenix? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have a bus from Maricopa to Phoenix, especially since it would allow travelers from Los Angeles to take the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle train to Phoenix? It would definitely boost ridership on this train.

 

[Superliner Diner]

jccollins,

I fully agree with you. I've advocated some sort of Thruway connection between Maricopa and downtown Phoenix, as well as other Valley points, since before the station opened. My hunch is that the numbers using the Tucson-Phoenix bus just did not satisfy Amtrak, so they figured they would cancel it at the same time as moving the station closer to Phoenix. But as you point out, it is literally among the cactus and near absolutely nothing. As far as public transportation goes, if you get off there, you are stranded in the desert sun for 3 days until the next Sunset Limited arrives.....if you survive.

It would be less costly to run a Thruway bus between Maricopa and Phoenix, since the mileage is less than it was from Tuscon. I am surprised no local bus or van operator has approached Amtrak and offered to run this service for them. Even if not as an official Thruway service, I am sure people would be willing to pay $5 or $10 cash just to get them to civilization. In effect, Amtrak is not serving Phoenix at all with the Sunset Limited, only an out-in-the-sticks place called Maricopa.

The Thruway connection from Flagstaff serving the Southwest Chief might be convenient if you're coming from Chicago or Kansas City, but it's a bit out of the way if you are going to Phoenix from points in California. But because of the existence of the Flagstaff-Phoenix buses, which serve the Phoenix Greyhound terminal, Sky Harbor International Airport, and a few other city and suburban points, station facilities are already in place for such a Maricopa-Phoenix bus route, should one ever start. It would just use the same pickup and dropoff points as the Flagstaff buses use now.

 

[tp49]

Diner,

Do you have a rough estimate as to what percentage of Amtrak's Thruway bus operation is operated by scheduled Greyhound routes as to those run by private charter companies? I've been curious about this for awhile as Frontier coach lines runs the thruway busses out of Sacramento under contract for Amtrak California.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Forty Nine,

I don't know the exact ratio of Greyhound-operated Thruways vs. non-Greyhound. However, if you look at my page on OTOL cited in the parent note, the general structure of the run numbers is such that all in the 7000's and 8000's are operated by Greyhound (or a subsidiary such as Vermont Transit), and those under 7000 are by other operators. That tells me that Greyhound-operated runs are in the minority, since the Thruway runs begin in the 3000's.

However, there are exceptions to the above rule. For instance, the 7000-series buses that ran between New York Penn Station and LaGuardia and JFK Airports are run by New York Airport Express, not a Greyhound company.

 

[Allen Dee]

Diner,
Do you have a rough estimate as to what percentage of Amtrak's Thruway bus operation is operated by scheduled Greyhound routes as to those run by private charter companies?  I've been curious about this for awhile as Frontier coach lines runs the thruway busses out of Sacramento under contract for Amtrak California.

Visit the Greyhound website. Click on site index. Scroll down through Travel Planning and Rail Connections. Click on Amtrak Thruway Service. Here is a listing of all Greyhound-operated Amtrak Thruway Bus Service. This page has not been updated for some time, so it may not be 100% accurate.

Also check out the url:

http://www.strayhound.com/fleet.htm

Scroll down to bus numbers 1060-1062. You will see that these 3 buses are assigned to the Amtrak California pool, and, to the best of my knowledge, are the only Greyhound buses painted in Amtrak colors.

 

[jccollins]

Regarding the Maricopa, AZ Station:

It almost seems like Amtrak could make it part of the station agent's job to operate a mini-bus from Phoenix to the Maricopa Station, with a small salary incentive, of course. This would really make sense if they station agent lived in Phoenix, too, which he/she probably does since there is NOTHING in Maricopa (besides the casino). It doesn't seem cost-effective to hire one ticket to staff the station for 8 hours when only two trains (or one in some cases because of the staggered tri-weekly schedule) are coming through. This would seem cost-effective if the station agent operated a shuttle to Phoenix bringing people to and from the station. With a little schedule-tweaking and willpower, this seems doable. What do you think? B)

 

[AlanB]

Actually that's a really novel idea, I kinda like that. It makes efficient use of employee time, gives him a free ride to and from work, while providing maximum customer convenience.

Sadly however, I suspect that due to union rules and liability issues it will probably never come to pass.

 

[jccollins]

Well, I think a letter to Amtrak suggesting the chnages at Maricopa, AZ couldn't hurt. Does anyone have any suggestions of things to add/take out of my draft letter? Please feel free to tear it apart; make changes and suggestions! Thanks.

Dear Amtrak:

I am writing in regards to the current limited Amtrak service to Phoenix, AZ (via Maricopa, AZ) on the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle train route). Three trains per week in each direction stop at Maricopa, AZ, a tiny town in the middle of the desert - Amtrak’s closest approach to the sixth largest city in the country. When passengers arrive at the Maricopa Station, they view a beautifully restored train car and accommodating station, but are literally stranded in the middle of the desert 35 miles south of Phoenix.

Between the Maricopa Amtrak Station and the Phoenix metro area, there is: NO transit bus service, NO Amtrak bus link, NO rental cars available, NO taxis, and NO way to get to the city unless someone drives out to Maricopa to pick you up.

Travelers are encouraged to take the Southwest Chief train to get to Phoenix, since it is connected via a 2 1/2 hour bus ride from Flagstaff. This is an ironic situation since most of the people using the Maricopa Station are really going to Phoenix. Ridership on the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle would immediately increase if passengers could get off at Maricopa and have some way to get to Phoenix.

I am proposing a change in operations at the Maricopa Station in the sample schedule below that would have many benefits for everyone.

SAMPLE SCHEDULE OF MARICOPA, AZ STATION OPERATIONS FOR MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY

Tuesday, Thursday, & Saturday Nights - Westbound Train 1:

Bus: LV Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 8:30pm

LV Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 8:40pm

LV Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 8:55pm

LV Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 9:10pm

AR Maricopa Amtrak Station 10:00pm

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Opens Maricopa Amtrak Station Upon Arrival 10:00pm

Train 1 Stops at Maricopa Amtrak Station 11:23pm

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Closes Maricopa Amtrak Station (1/2 hour after train 1 departs) 11:53pm

Bus: LV Maricopa Amtrak Station 12:00am

AR Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 12:50am

AR Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 1:05am

AR Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 1:20am

AR Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 1:30am

Monday, Thursday, & Saturday Mornings - Eastbound Train 2:

Bus: LV Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 4:30am

LV Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 4:40am

LV Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 4:55am

LV Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 5:10am

AR Maricopa Amtrak Station 6:00am

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Opens Maricopa Amtrak Station Upon Arrival 6:00am

Train 2 Stops at Maricopa Amtrak Station 7:12am

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Closes Maricopa Amtrak Station (1/2 hour after train 2 departs) 7:42am

Bus: LV Maricopa Amtrak Station 8:00am

AR Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 8:50am

AR Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 9:05am

AR Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 9:20am

AR Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 9:30am

This Amtrak thruway bus connection between the Maricopa, AZ Station and Phoenix Metro Center would have the following benefits:

A. Provide passengers boarding and detraining at Maricopa with a direct thruway link to a few key points in the Phoenix Metro Area without adding a costly second employee (agent) or contracting a bus company to run the bus.

B. Maximize operating efficiency of this station by replacing ‘idle’ station agent activity with a short, revenue earning bus link from a small deserted ‘town’ in the middle of nowhere (Maricopa) to the sixth largest city in the country (Phoenix)

C. Provide transportation from the station agent’s home in the Phoenix area (most likely) to the train station in Maricopa.

D. Serve ALL six trains that stop at the Maricopa, AZ Amtrak Station (instead of the current five out of six) by increasing the employee hours from 42.5 hours per week to 48 hours per week

E. Increase Phoenix’s support for Amtrak’s Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle trains since they would feel “linked” to them via the dedicated thruway.

F. Provide train/bus service to Phoenix with a much shorter bus link than the bus link from the Southwest Chief from Flagstaff to Phoenix.

In order for this to work, Amtrak would need to provide the Maricopa, AZ Station Agent with a thruway shuttle to operate/haul passengers in.

The sample schedule I have supplied above shows the Maricopa, AZ Amtrak Station open at least one hour prior to each train’s arrival until exactly 1/2 hour after the train’s departure. If the train arrived right on time, it would mean the ticket agent would only have a 5 hour workday. Unfortunately, this is hardly ever the case. The proposed schedule allows for each train to be 3 hours late while only extending the agent’s workday to 8 hours. The only downfall to the schedule is that passengers boarding the thruway from Phoenix to the Maricopa Amtrak Station would have a minimum one hour wait at the station for the train, even if it arrived on time. They could end up waiting a few hours, but that it why Amtrak staffs this beautiful train station: for the comfort and convenience of the passengers while they await their train. This is still much better than having no bus link or any other form of public transportation to get to Phoenix.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter. I hope you will consider modifying the operations at this station to meet the passengers’ demands. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or comments.

 

[tp49]

Not having been to Phoenix Sky Harbor either late at night or early in the morning I wonder if there would be enough traffic to sustain your proposed stops of the shuttle at PHX at 12:50 and 5:10 AM. Is PHX a 24 hour operation or does it close for a period of time during the night? Other than that I think the idea is a good one.

 

[Superliner Diner]

Good idea proposed by jccollins, and the reasoning behind it is that the stops proposed are all existing Thruway bus stations for the service that runs to & from Flagstaff. But I agree it would make little sense to take passengers who came from the train at Maricopa and deposit them at an airport overnight (although some people do choose to sleep in airport waiting rooms if they have an early morning flight) especially if there are no flights scheduled. But I think the reasoning behind Sky Harbor Airport as an Amtrak Thruway stop is that it serves as a transportation center. An airport has a long-term parking lot, food services, and maybe a nearby hotel. Since Maricopa lacks those amenities the airport could be an attractive intermediate stop in one's broader itinerary. They could relax there before the bus ride to Maricopa, or after arriving by bus from Maricopa.

As for the Metro Center stop, the Flagstaff buses stop here as a convenience to provide a downtown stop not at the airport. This location is near the city's center, where many of Valley Transit's buses meet. Again this stop would only make sense if it occurs at a time of day when the bus system is running.

 

[jccollins]

Thank you tp49 and Superliner Diner for your comments. I hadn't really thought out which stops would be most effective - I just listed the ones that the Flagstaff-Phoenix bus serves. Since I live in Northern California and only travel to Phoenix about once a year, I am not too familiar with the Phoenix area. I just thought it would make sense to propose a reasonable solution to the problem of passenger isolation in Maricopa. Amtrak could always adjust the stops it makes in the Phoenix area to make sense for the passengers. Even if they are dropped off/picked up at a closed transit center in the Phoenix area it is still better than being stranded in Maricopa... I will send out the letter to Amtrak on Monday. I doubt anything will change, but I like to think optimistically.

 

[Timothy Lewis]

I drive to maricopa and free parking at the amtrack and stay in LA for month and half and came back to maricopa and my car is fine. That is one way to drive on your own. I agree with shuttle to amtrak from maricopa county to city of maricopa.

Well, I think a letter to Amtrak suggesting the chnages at Maricopa, AZ couldn't hurt. Does anyone have any suggestions of things to add/take out of my draft letter? Please feel free to tear it apart; make changes and suggestions! Thanks.

Dear Amtrak:

I am writing in regards to the current limited Amtrak service to Phoenix, AZ (via Maricopa, AZ) on the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle train route). Three trains per week in each direction stop at Maricopa, AZ, a tiny town in the middle of the desert - Amtrak’s closest approach to the sixth largest city in the country. When passengers arrive at the Maricopa Station, they view a beautifully restored train car and accommodating station, but are literally stranded in the middle of the desert 35 miles south of Phoenix.

Between the Maricopa Amtrak Station and the Phoenix metro area, there is: NO transit bus service, NO Amtrak bus link, NO rental cars available, NO taxis, and NO way to get to the city unless someone drives out to Maricopa to pick you up.

Travelers are encouraged to take the Southwest Chief train to get to Phoenix, since it is connected via a 2 1/2 hour bus ride from Flagstaff. This is an ironic situation since most of the people using the Maricopa Station are really going to Phoenix. Ridership on the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle would immediately increase if passengers could get off at Maricopa and have some way to get to Phoenix.

I am proposing a change in operations at the Maricopa Station in the sample schedule below that would have many benefits for everyone.

SAMPLE SCHEDULE OF MARICOPA, AZ STATION OPERATIONS FOR MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY

Tuesday, Thursday, & Saturday Nights - Westbound Train 1:

Bus: LV Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 8:30pm

LV Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 8:40pm

LV Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 8:55pm

LV Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 9:10pm

AR Maricopa Amtrak Station 10:00pm

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Opens Maricopa Amtrak Station Upon Arrival 10:00pm

Train 1 Stops at Maricopa Amtrak Station 11:23pm

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Closes Maricopa Amtrak Station (1/2 hour after train 1 departs) 11:53pm

Bus: LV Maricopa Amtrak Station 12:00am

AR Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 12:50am

AR Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 1:05am

AR Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 1:20am

AR Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 1:30am

Monday, Thursday, & Saturday Mornings - Eastbound Train 2:

Bus: LV Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 4:30am

LV Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 4:40am

LV Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 4:55am

LV Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 5:10am

AR Maricopa Amtrak Station 6:00am

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Opens Maricopa Amtrak Station Upon Arrival 6:00am

Train 2 Stops at Maricopa Amtrak Station 7:12am

Station Agent (Bus Driver) Closes Maricopa Amtrak Station (1/2 hour after train 2 departs) 7:42am

Bus: LV Maricopa Amtrak Station 8:00am

AR Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport 8:50am

AR Phoenix Metro Center (323 Metro Parkway W.) 9:05am

AR Phoenix Amtrak Station (401 W. Harrison Street) 9:20am

AR Phoenix Greyhound Station (2115 E. Buckeye Rd.) 9:30am

This Amtrak thruway bus connection between the Maricopa, AZ Station and Phoenix Metro Center would have the following benefits:

A. Provide passengers boarding and detraining at Maricopa with a direct thruway link to a few key points in the Phoenix Metro Area without adding a costly second employee (agent) or contracting a bus company to run the bus.

B. Maximize operating efficiency of this station by replacing ‘idle’ station agent activity with a short, revenue earning bus link from a small deserted ‘town’ in the middle of nowhere (Maricopa) to the sixth largest city in the country (Phoenix)

C. Provide transportation from the station agent’s home in the Phoenix area (most likely) to the train station in Maricopa.

D. Serve ALL six trains that stop at the Maricopa, AZ Amtrak Station (instead of the current five out of six) by increasing the employee hours from 42.5 hours per week to 48 hours per week

E. Increase Phoenix’s support for Amtrak’s Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle trains since they would feel “linked” to them via the dedicated thruway.

F. Provide train/bus service to Phoenix with a much shorter bus link than the bus link from the Southwest Chief from Flagstaff to Phoenix.

In order for this to work, Amtrak would need to provide the Maricopa, AZ Station Agent with a thruway shuttle to operate/haul passengers in.

The sample schedule I have supplied above shows the Maricopa, AZ Amtrak Station open at least one hour prior to each train’s arrival until exactly 1/2 hour after the train’s departure. If the train arrived right on time, it would mean the ticket agent would only have a 5 hour workday. Unfortunately, this is hardly ever the case. The proposed schedule allows for each train to be 3 hours late while only extending the agent’s workday to 8 hours. The only downfall to the schedule is that passengers boarding the thruway from Phoenix to the Maricopa Amtrak Station would have a minimum one hour wait at the station for the train, even if it arrived on time. They could end up waiting a few hours, but that it why Amtrak staffs this beautiful train station: for the comfort and convenience of the passengers while they await their train. This is still much better than having no bus link or any other form of public transportation to get to Phoenix.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter. I hope you will consider modifying the operations at this station to meet the passengers’ demands. Please feel free to contact me with any questions or comments.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

This thread is 8 years old...

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, I got to the second entry and was like "THREE RIVERS"? It's back???

 

[alanh]

The Flagstaff Thruway piggybacks on an existing van service that would run even without Amtrak. There's no such shuttle to Maricopa. I believe the old Thruway to Tucson was Greyhound.

Parking is okay if you live in Phoenix, but if you're traveling to Phoenix you're out of luck.

 

[George Harris]

Notice that the poster that brought this back to life is a guest. More than likely he did a search on some subject that brought up this thread, and thought it worthwhile to add a statement, possibly without looking at the date on teh last post.

 

[battalion51]

I picked up on it when the OP was discussing poor calling times for the Pennsylvanian at Philly, which definitely are not true these days...sort of fun to look back though.

 

[TransitGeek]

Damnit, got my hopes up. I have a friend in Eureka who would have used that "new" thruway service to Redding.

 

[fredmcain]

In an effort to bring this thread up to date just a bit, HOW if Amtrak currently serving Phoenix? Is there currently a bus connection from the Flagstaff Amtrak depot? I think there might be a bus from Maricopa 'cause it was referenced in an NARP timetable that was put on the web but no metion of a Flagstaff bus.

Is there one? Can intercity public transportation in America get any worse?