amtrak train stranded 16 hours

[amtrakwolverine]

WASHINGTON - An Amtrak train from Boston to Newport News that spent the night stranded between Richmond and Williamsburg has finally made it Newport News - 16 and a half hours late.

http://wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1614232

 

[saxman]

Geeze, thats crazy. I just arrived into Washington on the Meteor, and we were almost on time. Lots of snow though.

 

[Tony]

... - 16 and a half hours late.

Only 16 and a half hours late.

After being stranded on a northbound Silver due to a CSX derailment for over 24 hours, that seems so easy.

One would really think that by now, Amtrak would have an action plan for such problems (freight train blocking off complete use of track for significant amount of time). This time in contrast to my experience, it reads like Amtrak at least got some supplies out to the train (food).

 

[AlanB]

One would really think that by now, Amtrak would have an action plan for such problems (freight train blocking off complete use of track for significant amount of time). This time in contrast to my experience, it reads like Amtrak at least got some supplies out to the train (food).

What kind of action plan can anyone come up with for a train stuck between stations in the middle of a snow storm? Did you want a rescue by helicopter? Please get real here.

I've no doubt that based upon the information given them by CSX that Amtrak realized that the delay caused by the derailment wasn't going to be too many hours, so the best and wisest course of action was to keep the people on the train until they could proceed. Which is what they did.

Then after leaving Richmond is when they encountered their second problem, that being trees down across the tracks. So now I guess Amtrak should add chain saws to its safety equipment tool boxes.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

One would really think that by now, Amtrak would have an action plan for such problems (freight train blocking off complete use of track for significant amount of time). This time in contrast to my experience, it reads like Amtrak at least got some supplies out to the train (food).

What kind of action plan can anyone come up with for a train stuck between stations in the middle of a snow storm? Did you want a rescue by helicopter? Please get real here.

I've no doubt that based upon the information given them by CSX that Amtrak realized that the delay caused by the derailment wasn't going to be too many hours, so the best and wisest course of action was to keep the people on the train until they could proceed. Which is what they did.

Were I Amtrak, I would have backed the train to the previous grade crossing and got some busses to it. Is that so unreasonable?

Then after leaving Richmond is when they encountered their second problem, that being trees down across the tracks. So now I guess Amtrak should add chain saws to its safety equipment tool boxes.

Actually, that's not a bad idea.

 

[AlanB]

One would really think that by now, Amtrak would have an action plan for such problems (freight train blocking off complete use of track for significant amount of time). This time in contrast to my experience, it reads like Amtrak at least got some supplies out to the train (food).

What kind of action plan can anyone come up with for a train stuck between stations in the middle of a snow storm? Did you want a rescue by helicopter? Please get real here.

I've no doubt that based upon the information given them by CSX that Amtrak realized that the delay caused by the derailment wasn't going to be too many hours, so the best and wisest course of action was to keep the people on the train until they could proceed. Which is what they did.

Were I Amtrak, I would have backed the train to the previous grade crossing and got some busses to it. Is that so unreasonable?

In the dark, in a major snow storm with several inches of snow already on the gound, yes that is unreasonable for a delay of just a few hours. The passengers were safer on the train at that point in time.

And finding buses on a Sunday night, in the middle of a major snow storm, would also be a major problem.

 

[Ispolkom]

Were I Amtrak, I would have backed the train to the previous grade crossing and got some busses to it. Is that so unreasonable?

In the dark, in a major snow storm with several inches of snow already on the gound, yes that is unreasonable for a delay of just a few hours. The passengers were safer on the train at that point in time.

And finding buses on a Sunday night, in the middle of a major snow storm, would also be a major problem.

Especially given how Virginians drive on snow and ice, and how competent VDOT is at clearing roads. For me the money quote is "The train had power and heat throughout the night, and food was served in the cafeteria car." That sounds better than being in a bus in a ditch. I'll admit that the storm sounds to me like a fine spring morning in Minnesota, but it was the worst storm Virginia's had for years.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Snow: Amtrak's Arch Nemesis since 1971.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I have to ask... just because... it wasn't... train 194, was it?

 

[Ryan]

194 runs the other way, so no.

 

[AlanB]

It was train #99.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Ah. Train 194 looks better and better everyday now.

 

[Hugh]

I was aboard #99 Colonial, boarding at Washington. The train pulled out of Union Station on time at 1700 hours. We we doing fine, except when we hit the derailment just before entering Richmond--Staples Mill Road Station. We had to switch onto an adjacent track first, then were given a slow order around CSX's derailed locomotives. We were now on a running track approaching Staples Mill Station and had to go almost completely through Acca Yard to switch onto the platform track to perform a back-up into Staples Mill station. This had to be done so passengers could alight onto the platform instead of stepping onto the ballast from the adjacent running track. While backing, we had to stop for a fallen tree to be cut off the tracks.

After that, we proceeded to Richmond--Main Street Station. We we held at Main Street Station while CSX employees worked to manually throw switches for our approach into Fulton Yard.

We finally got through Fulton Yard with several stops for the the crew to climb down out of the coach to throw switches themselves due to freezing and "doubted/questioned" alignment displays appearing for the CSX dispatchers in their control center.

After getting underway south of Fulton Yard, our locomotive struck several trees taking out the headlamp and shattering the windshield. A crewman told me that the engineer ducked and could have very easily been killed.

We spent the rest of the time waiting for CSX Railroad to send two freight locomotives from Newport News Yard north to couple to our locomotive. Our crew also had to go out of service since they went past their fourteen (think it is fourteen hours as their maximum work time permitted) hour mark. The CSX Railroad response was delayed due to the time needed to get a new Amtrak crew together, have additional trees cut by the northbound rescue engines, and the time to hook up the air brakes, etc.

The railroad did comp all the passengers after about 0300 hours with the remaining food and drink in the Club Car (minus the alcoholic beverages.) I this was very decent of the railroad since all the circumstances were really out of it's control. The crew of Amtrak #99 also did an excellent job keeping the passenger informed of delays experienced en route. And as you know...we had several.

My only complaints: (i) If the peninsula coal line is an important line to the CSX Railroad, then why aren't there natural gas or electric heaters on the switches to prevent fouling in freezing temperatures such as this? The storm arrived sudden and fast (yet was predicted) and both CSX and Amtrak Railroads would have benefited from having switch heaters installed (ii) Even though Amtrak trains unfortunately take lower priority (despite there being a law, enforceable with fines) than the coal unit trains and occasional mixed freights running up and down the peninsula, why wasn't CSX Railroad at least running a locomotive up and down the line at the onset of the storm keeping the through track switches clear and checking for falling debris? I believe they have this responsibility to Amtrak Railroad to ensure prompt passage of passenger trains whether or not they have suspended freight operations.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

WOW news didn't say anything about that. that engineer is lucky to be alive. got to give amtrak credit to keeping the loco running to provide power and heat and serve people food. unlike the per Marquette in which they did nothing for the pax.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

My only complaints: (i) If the peninsula coal line is an important line to the CSX Railroad, then why aren't there natural gas or electric heaters on the switches to prevent fouling in freezing temperatures such as this? The storm arrived sudden and fast (yet was predicted) and both CSX and Amtrak Railroads would have benefited from having switch heaters installed

Why run coal trains through a snow storm at all? Isn't it easier and safer to have enough coal stored at the train's destination that a day or two of no deliveries won't be a problem?

(ii) Even though Amtrak trains unfortunately take lower priority (despite there being a law, enforceable with fines) than the coal unit trains and occasional mixed freights running up and down the peninsula, why wasn't CSX Railroad at least running a locomotive up and down the line at the onset of the storm keeping the through track switches clear and checking for falling debris? I believe they have this responsibility to Amtrak Railroad to ensure prompt passage of passenger trains whether or not they have suspended freight operations.

Who gets to pay the bill for all of this?

 

[Ryan]

(ii) Even though Amtrak trains unfortunately take lower priority (despite there being a law, enforceable with fines) than the coal unit trains and occasional mixed freights running up and down the peninsula, why wasn't CSX Railroad at least running a locomotive up and down the line at the onset of the storm keeping the through track switches clear and checking for falling debris? I believe they have this responsibility to Amtrak Railroad to ensure prompt passage of passenger trains whether or not they have suspended freight operations.

Who gets to pay the bill for all of this?

Nobody, as the end result would just be CSX saying "Screw it! Line's closed due to weather, cancel your trains." and there being no train service in marginal conditions.

 

[Tony]

I've no doubt that based upon the information given them by CSX that Amtrak realized that the delay caused by the derailment wasn't going to be too many hours, so the best and wisest course of action was to keep the people on the train until they could proceed. Which is what they did.

IMHO, that's the problem. "Information given them by CSX". At least from my one experience, CSX is way over optimistic about the time needed to deal with freight train derailments. Plus, as an Amtrak passenger, Amtrak not CSX is responsible to me.

What Amtrak should learn to do better, is to send its own experienced people out to the derailment sight, and make their own judgement on how bad it is, and long it might truly take before trains can start moving thru the area again.

BTW, an action plan can be more than one option; removing passengers from the train. It could also be "get supplies to the train", being extra food, potable water, etc, even diesel fuel to keep the loco running. Honestly, being a stranded passenger, I don't care if that means using row boats or dog sleds.

 

[Tony]

Our crew also had to go out of service since they went past their fourteen (think it is fourteen hours as their maximum work time permitted) hour mark. The CSX Railroad response was delayed due to the time needed to get a new Amtrak crew together, have additional trees cut by the northbound rescue engines, and the time to hook up the air brakes, etc.
The railroad did comp all the passengers after about 0300 hours with the remaining food and drink in the Club Car (minus the alcoholic beverages.) I this was very decent of the railroad since all the circumstances were really out of it's control. The crew of Amtrak #99 also did an excellent job keeping the passenger informed of delays experienced en route. And as you know...we had several.

From my 24 hour delay, I would say that you hit upon one of my greatest peeves. We could not move for 24 hours. How, us "dumb" passengers were worried about the "fourteen hour" rule, and knew that once we start to move again, our crew would quick hit their work limited.

If us "dumb" passengers knew, why didn't any one at Amtrak know?"

So here we are, finally moving after 24 hours, and suddenly, rolling to a stop in the middle of a swamp because the crew hit their time limit. A few more hours, now, of not moving. :angry:

IMHO, Amtrak had 24 hours to get a replacement crew to us. Sorry, but I don't care if Amtrak had to rent helicopters to bring them into our next station stop, and pay them 10x their regular salary. We should have had a replacement crew on board before the existing crew timed out.

 

Also, on this trip, the LSA went from room to room, and once she was assured all the sleeping passengers were fed, the LSA start to give away any remaining food she had to the coach passengers. Many of them, did not pack enough "brown bag" food to last an additional 24 hours, and that included many children.

 

[AlanB]

I've no doubt that based upon the information given them by CSX that Amtrak realized that the delay caused by the derailment wasn't going to be too many hours, so the best and wisest course of action was to keep the people on the train until they could proceed. Which is what they did.

IMHO, that's the problem. "Information given them by CSX". At least from my one experience, CSX is way over optimistic about the time needed to deal with freight train derailments. Plus, as an Amtrak passenger, Amtrak not CSX is responsible to me.

What Amtrak should learn to do better, is to send its own experienced people out to the derailment sight, and make their own judgement on how bad it is, and long it might truly take before trains can start moving thru the area again.

So now you want Amtrak to keep trained professionals who understand all the facets of cleaning up a derailment on call throughout the country, just so they can run out to an accident site once or twice a year at most to better evaluate things. And that assumes that the host RR will even let them come onto the site and that the host RR bothers to share the plans for getting cranes and other equipment to the site, all so these experts can make a prediction.

BTW, an action plan can be more than one option; removing passengers from the train. It could also be "get supplies to the train", being extra food, potable water, etc, even diesel fuel to keep the loco running. Honestly, being a stranded passenger, I don't care if that means using row boats or dog sleds.

And where in this story did anyone mention that the train ran out of fuel or food?

Nowhere, in fact that was one of the first things even mentioned, that they had food, heat, lights, and toilets. So it seems like the plan worked.

 

[AlanB]

Our crew also had to go out of service since they went past their fourteen (think it is fourteen hours as their maximum work time permitted) hour mark. The CSX Railroad response was delayed due to the time needed to get a new Amtrak crew together, have additional trees cut by the northbound rescue engines, and the time to hook up the air brakes, etc.
The railroad did comp all the passengers after about 0300 hours with the remaining food and drink in the Club Car (minus the alcoholic beverages.) I this was very decent of the railroad since all the circumstances were really out of it's control. The crew of Amtrak #99 also did an excellent job keeping the passenger informed of delays experienced en route. And as you know...we had several.

From my 24 hour delay, I would say that you hit upon one of my greatest peeves. We could not move for 24 hours. How, us "dumb" passengers were worried about the "fourteen hour" rule, and knew that once we start to move again, our crew would quick hit their work limited.

If us "dumb" passengers knew, why didn't any one at Amtrak know?"

So here we are, finally moving after 24 hours, and suddenly, rolling to a stop in the middle of a swamp because the crew hit their time limit. A few more hours, now, of not moving. :angry:

IMHO, Amtrak had 24 hours to get a replacement crew to us. Sorry, but I don't care if Amtrak had to rent helicopters to bring them into our next station stop, and pay them 10x their regular salary. We should have had a replacement crew on board before the existing crew timed out.

 

Also, on this trip, the LSA went from room to room, and once she was assured all the sleeping passengers were fed, the LSA start to give away any remaining food she had to the coach passengers. Many of them, did not pack enough "brown bag" food to last an additional 24 hours, and that included many children.

 

First, it's 12 hours, not 14.

 

Second, it's not just a matter of knowing that the crew is going to outlaw. It's a matter have having a qualified and rested crew available. You can't just helicopter an engineer or a conductor who works the NEC from DC to NY to a train running between Richmond and Newport News. An engineer who works the CZ from Denver to Salt Lake City is very unlikely to be qualified to run the SWC from La Junta to ABQ. The engineer must be qualified to operate trains on that route. Qualified means that he/she has made several runs under supervision and has demonstrated knowledge of where all the signals, switches, and permanent speed reduction are. Additionally this individual must have had their federally mandated rest before they can be called for duty.

 

Now Amtrak does have extra engineers, but they are in limited supply, as Amtrak has to pay them a certain number of hours regardless of whether they actually work or not. It's simply not possible to keep dozens of people sitting around doing nothing and getting paid, Congress won't allow, the public wouldn't allow it, and a good manager would not allow it.

 

When a problem occurs, if it affects only one train and there have been no other problems in that area for a few days, it's highly likely that Amtrak can and will get a crew there in time. But during bad weather or when there have been multiple trains affected, it is very unlikely that Amtrak has enough rested crews just sitting around waiting to be called to duty.

 

So you have to wait until a crew has completed their Federally mandated rest, before they can come rescue the train. And it's not like Amtrak can order the crew to sleep faster or harder.

 

[printman2000]

So with the train sitting in one spot for 24 hours, that would mean there was at least one crew who did nothing but sit on the stationary train for 12 hours, correct? Just wondering.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

but thanks to the good ol FRA the crews cannot rest on a train. so there for even if the crew got 12 hours sleep they still outlawed which means the pax are screwed untill a new crew can arrive. the host RR should have in place a plan for things like this like providing a engineer and conductor(they would know the route driving freight) so the train could get to the closest station were pax could be let off so they can get to some place besides a train that has run out of food and water. do they not care about the pax. screw the outlaw rule they should be allowed to at least move the train to the closest station even if that means backing up. then give the crew 48 hours rest. or have the host RR hook up there loco with there engineer and conductor and move the train. its a emergency they should be allowed to go over to get the pax to safety.

 

[Upstate]

but thanks to the good ol FRA the crews cannot rest on a train.

So what I am thinking is keep a tent and some sleeping bags in the baggage car and when things get ugly they can make camp beside the train and get their rest until things get cleaned up.

 

[Ryan]

For the love of Pete, as Alan pointed out, this train did not run out of food, water or heat, and didn't sit for anywhere near 24 hours.

If Gues_Tony's talking about some other situation, more details and sources would be appropriate so that we're all clear on what's being discussed.

 

[AlanB]

do they not care about the pax. screw the outlaw rule they should be allowed to at least move the train to the closest station even if that means backing up. then give the crew 48 hours rest. or have the host RR hook up there loco with there engineer and conductor and move the train. its a emergency they should be allowed to go over to get the pax to safety.

So now you want a crew that's been awake for probably at least 15 or more hours to back up a train, in the dark, in a snow storm, over grade crossings where cars won't be able to properly hear the whistle, over switches that they already had problems with, and all without having an accident, just so they can get to a station to provide what the passengers already have, that being food, working toilets, heat, and lights. :blink:

Doesn't make sense to me. :unsure:

Better to stay safely where they are since they are all warm and comfy to await the proper opportunity to move forward, than to risk lives, both of passengers and people on the ground.