Amtrak's New Unfriendly Group Rates Policy

[west point]

all this reminds one of the battles between the airlines and travel agents. Agents kept trying to raise commission charges that almost ran many airlines into the ground. + overbooking problems and last minute cancellations. Many relatives had such low opinions that they are not repeatable.

 

[jebr]

Other than making some money for the organization of the resale of the tickets, what disadvantage is there towards simply telling people "Hey, we're organizing this trip. Please buy your tickets from Amtrak. We're asking for a $X donation to help support the organization and make the organization of trips like this possible."

I get it's not as easy for someone to donate, but I also don't think there's that many non-profits that are going to be significantly impacted by such a policy. It may mean that the tour operators will enforce stricter refund policies, but it seems rather advantageous for Amtrak to not have the liability of having a bunch of unsold seats or rooms because a tour operator purchased a bunch and returned them at (relatively) the last minute.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

So, let's say the 20th Century Railroad Club (or whatever group or RR history group you are part of) wanted to organize an excursion. It's 10 months out from the date of the excursion. So, the organizer goes to Amtrak and purchases 40 seats. They now basically have just 60 days to try and sell those tickets to members or the public before final non-refundable payments are due. The thing is, from my experience working in the travel business, most people are NOT going to book a non-refundable excursion 8-10 months out. I'd argue most folks aren't planners and don't know what they are doing even a few months out from now on the weekends. I have seen very few day or weekend trip rail excursions go on sale 8-10 months out... and if they did... they most often aren't totally non-refundable. So let's say the club sells 10 seats in that time frame.

I look at this as a very good example of how you abused the system.

You bought 40 tickets and cancelled/returned 30 of those. That quite an over buy. What, a whooping 400% over buy? IMHO, 400% is definitely abuse.

Your true problem is with your own club members. If the club looses money, its not because of Amtrak. Its because of the club members who want the club to put together a trip, but then don't go. If your very own club members don't care if the club looses money, why should I? And why should Amtrak?

 

[NW cannonball]

I'm not understanding this.

Is it that some privileged "tour operators" got to buy bunches of tickets on spec and not pay on time?

If so, partially explains the wierd changes in sleeper prices 2-6 months out.

Hey, two of my buddies do tours to Japan and Tibet - really.

If they can't get a group together six months (maybe 4 months) out all is cancelled, total refund.

If they accept the marks money, the tour goes on, and the organizer wins or loses.

What's so difficult about that business model? Huh?

If you can't get the group and the money together -- cancel, no reason Amtrak should subsidize a failed business plan.

Eh?

 

[tricia]

May I offer one data point, from my own experience this year?

In January, I booked a trip for this coming September under the old AGR rules including California to Chicago on the CZ. At that time, about 9 months from travel date, so many roomettes were already booked that the Amtrak agent couldn't give me a one-seat ride. Only availability was two lower-level roomettes (I much prefer upper-level), changing rooms in Denver.

Now, I was persistent enough to ask the agent if the "sold out" train might have space for me if I changed rooms en route. Most folks trying to book this online would see "no availiability" and decide to make other travel plans.

I also thought to say to the (very helpful) Amtrak agent: Gee, I bet there's a tour group that's booked all those rooms. She looked and confirmed that this was so, and suggested that I call back from time to time to check whether I might change to a one-seat, upper-level ride, since the tour group would likely eventually cancel some of the roomettes they'd booked.

Annoying for me, but clearly a larger problem for Amtrak if they're in effect turning away individual customers to hold seats for a group that's apparently reserved more tickets than they're likely to actually pay for and use.

 

[crescent2]

I have no helpful info or experiences to post; I'm just going to give my two cents' worth:

I'm with most who've commented here. I'm glad to see this policy change.

Tour operators should be able to do a much better job of realistically estimating their needs before they reserve space. If so, they won't have a significant problem. Utilizing the old system as the OP has described seems like abuse of the system to me.

 

[andersone]

I am glad Amtrak has taken this action, leveling the sleeper playing field tremendously. What I might suggest that what is needed is the verified rail fan group be permitted to book these events as they promote rail travel.

 

[crabby_appleton1950]

Similarly, but different, there have been news stories here in Albuquerque of national chain ticket agencies buying up huge blocks of tickets for local concerts and plays to resell at higher prices, and thus blocking out individuals who are unable to buy just one or two tickets at what would be the regular price.

 

[neutralist]

So, let's say the 20th Century Railroad Club (or whatever group or RR history group you are part of) wanted to organize an excursion. It's 10 months out from the date of the excursion. So, the organizer goes to Amtrak and purchases 40 seats. They now basically have just 60 days to try and sell those tickets to members or the public before final non-refundable payments are due. The thing is, from my experience working in the travel business, most people are NOT going to book a non-refundable excursion 8-10 months out. I'd argue most folks aren't planners and don't know what they are doing even a few months out from now on the weekends. I have seen very few day or weekend trip rail excursions go on sale 8-10 months out... and if they did... they most often aren't totally non-refundable. So let's say the club sells 10 seats in that time frame.

1. An legitimate railroad club should get their own damn private car and you won't have this problem to start with: https://www.amtrak.com/privately-owned-rail-cars

2. Otherwise, pass the cost to the members or don't organize things 10 months out.

 

[neroden]

I don't think the issue is so black and white --- yes, it's possibly good news for the individual traveler because there will be more space available, but if you enjoy traveling with a group, or heck, are even part of a railroad club who does charters -- it could be really bad news for you -- and maybe you don't realize it.

Again, not so black and white as it may seem at first.

*SIGH* So do the following:

(a) collect money from YOUR passengers in advance. Make the markup large enough to allow for covering some cancellations.

OR

(b) make your group reservations closer to travel time.

I don't see the problem.

If you have a legit group, you will have enough people committed to get the group rate, well in advance.

 

[Seaboard92]

My opinion is to just charter a private car. Generally they are better suited for a group, have a nicer interior, and better customer service. Full disclosure I work private cars and like getting runs.

 

[Karl1459]

My opinion is to just charter a private car. Generally they are better suited for a group, have a nicer interior, and better customer service. Full disclosure I work private cars and like getting runs.

There are risks and restrictions for private car operations...

IRRC:

PC passengers are not free to walk the rest of the train, including using the Amtrak diner or lounge.

If there is an equipment failure of the PC Amtrak does not have responsibility to continue the passenger to destination.

No guaranteed connections.

Amtrak can drop the PC in the event of a locomotive failure.

Now not to panic if trying for a "real" tour...

1. Have a "bail out" number for reservations, and reserve seats 6 months out.

2. There is now 2 months to sell past the "bail out" number. (book early and save!)

3. At 59 days cancel excess seats, and re-reserve seats (these may of course be at a higher price).

4. At 29 days cancel excess and re-reserve again, repeat in 29 days.

5. After that reservations are on a "space available" and "market price" basis.

Yes it could be done... and yes a lot more work for the tour promoter.

 

[dlagrua]

Exactly. You want to know who to blame? Tour operators who gobble up all the prime time seats months and months and months in advance, wait until the last second to try and sell them, and dump them for a refund weeks or even DAYS before the train actually travels; seats which then often go unsold, due to people not have time to plan to take the trip, because when they checked it was uber bucket or "Sold out".

Keep strangling that golden goose, and eventually you kill it.

This has been my concern for quite some time. Tour operators reserve the sleeper cars 10 months in advance.then when you go to buy a sleeper the fare is already at high bucket. Amtrak also loses out because the speculation by the tour operators has often resulted to late cancellations and empty space. Making tour operators responsible for "buying in bulk" is the right thing to do and it benefits the general public. .

 

[andersone]

speaking of private rail,, anyone know if Iowa Pacific has any plans on restoring the CONO run? it has been on my bucket list,,,,,

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

speaking of private rail,, anyone know if Iowa Pacific has any plans on restoring the CONO run? it has been on my bucket list,,,,,

Dont think so, the price that Iowa Pacific was paying went up. So no more train. Not sure what type of discount they were getting but it seem it is not available to them this year.

 

[Seaboard92]

I don't think so Andersone. I can ask when I deal with them next week if you like.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm kind of impressed by how much the AU community has come together to voice a chorus of approval for this change. It's really rare to see this many people in near total agreement for any given topic on nearly any given forum. Personally I think the 99% group is completely correct here. While the change may come with some flaws it's still better than the anything goes carte blanche nonsense tour operators previously enjoyed. Seriously.

My opinion is to just charter a private car. Generally they are better suited for a group, have a nicer interior, and better customer service. Full disclosure I work private cars and like getting runs.

There are risks and restrictions for private car operations...

IRRC:

PC passengers are not free to walk the rest of the train, including using the Amtrak diner or lounge.

If there is an equipment failure of the PC Amtrak does not have responsibility to continue the passenger to destination.

No guaranteed connections.

Amtrak can drop the PC in the event of a locomotive failure.

When it comes to hauling private varnish it sounds like Amtrak invokes a similar playbook as the one freight railroads use against Amtrak. Seems like a rather old fashioned view of doing business. Father beats mother, mother whips child, child kicks dog, dog chews father's slippers. Not saying this is all Amtrak's fault but it seems short sighted of them to willingly perpetuate the host's indifference in the PV logistics market. Hopefully this is just a fine print kind of exclusion that doesn't preclude Amtrak from making a best effort attempt at keeping things moving rather than potentially leaving paying customers stranded in the middle of nowhere.

 

[KmH]

Reminds me of the US Mail service Amtrak casually abandoned and unceremoniously kicked to the curb.

Can you elaborate on that?
It looks like the USPS abandoned their Railway Mail Service several years before Amtrak took over passenger rail from the railroads in 1971.

In 1890, 5,800 postal railway clerks provided service over 154,800 miles (249,100 km) of railroad. By 1907, over 14,000 clerks were providing service over 203,000 miles (327,000 km) of railroad. When the post office began handling parcel post in 1913, terminal Railway Post Office operations were established in major cities by the RMS, in order to handle the large increase in mail volume. The Railway Mail Service reached its peak in the 1920s, then began a gradual decline with the discontinuance of RPO service on branchlines and secondary routes. After 1942, Highway Post Office (HPO) service was utilized to continue en route sorting after discontinuance of some railway post office operations. As highway mail transportation became more prevalent, the Railway Mail Service was redesignated as the Postal Transportation Service.

Abandonment of routes accelerated in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and many of the remaining lines were discontinued in 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_post_office

The railroads wanted/needed the RMS to continue.

From the middle of the 19th century, many American railroads earned substantial revenues through contracts with the U.S. Post Office Department (USPOD) to carry mail aboard high-speed passenger trains; and the Railway Mail Service enforced various standardized designs on RPOs. In fact, a number of companies maintained passenger routes where the financial losses from moving people were more than offset by transporting the mail.

 

[andersone]

Seaboard please do inquire,,,, the older I get the more precious my bucket list becomes. You can reply directly if that is more convenience

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Reminds me of the US Mail service Amtrak casually abandoned and unceremoniously kicked to the curb.

Can you elaborate on that?

It's not referring to the original discontinuance of mail service but rather a second attempt many years later that was unilaterally ended by Amtrak with little or no notice. I'm probably the wrong guy to elaborate but it's something I learned right here on AU so hopefully someone with more knowledge can explain the event in more detail.

 

[BCL]

Amtrak used to haul mail pretty much as freight. They also had a mail service train called the Fast Mail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)

 

[Seaboard92]

I'm kind of impressed by how much the AU community has come together to voice a chorus of approval for this change. It's really rare to see this many people in near total agreement for any given topic on nearly any given forum. Personally I think the 99% group is completely correct here. While the change may come with some flaws it's still better than the anything goes carte blanche nonsense tour operators previously enjoyed. Seriously.

My opinion is to just charter a private car. Generally they are better suited for a group, have a nicer interior, and better customer service. Full disclosure I work private cars and like getting runs.

There are risks and restrictions for private car operations...

IRRC:

PC passengers are not free to walk the rest of the train, including using the Amtrak diner or lounge.

If there is an equipment failure of the PC Amtrak does not have responsibility to continue the passenger to destination.

No guaranteed connections.

Amtrak can drop the PC in the event of a locomotive failure.

When it comes to hauling private varnish it sounds like Amtrak invokes a similar playbook as the one freight railroads use against Amtrak. Seems like a rather old fashioned view of doing business. Father beats mother, mother whips child, child kicks dog, dog chews father's slippers. Not saying this is all Amtrak's fault but it seems short sighted of them to willingly perpetuate the host's indifference in the PV logistics market. Hopefully this is just a fine print kind of exclusion that doesn't preclude Amtrak from making a best effort attempt at keeping things moving rather than potentially leaving paying customers stranded in the middle of nowhere.

If you know how Amtrak PV world/Charters work you would find out it is almost worse then what you've said. If you are on the inside with them then your golden. But if if you aren't good luck. If you own a PV of want to be in the charter business I strongly recommend joining the AAPRCO. That will help you get things out of Amtrak Charter.

 

[KmH]

Amtrak used to haul mail pretty much as freight. They also had a mail service train called the Fast Mail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)

So Fast Mail was just 1 train regional thing rather than a national service.

 

[jis]

Amtrak did carry mail on many routes in baggage cars that were marked "US Mail". Gunn put an end to it at the same time that he killed a substantial part of Amtrak Express and Warrington's misadventures.

 

[CCC1007]

Amtrak used to haul mail pretty much as freight. They also had a mail service train called the Fast Mail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Mail_(Amtrak_train)

So Fast Mail was just 1 train regional thing rather than a national service.

Do a YouTube search for "when Amtrak carried mail" there is a video of Amtrak trains on the BNSF racetrack in the Chicago area. It demonstrates how long Amtrak trains were back then.

EDIT: here is the video that I was talking of.

https://youtu.be/LJpQUOIKDak