Anderson Speaks on Long Distance Trains

[Tarm]

I'm not sure what airline executive said it but "What people want and what they are willing to pay for are two very different things" is one of the most truthful statements I have ever heard. If the true cost of a Amtrak hot breakfast is $75 would you pay it? How about $150 for a cooked to order steak dinner? The dinning car experience is great, but let's not fool ourselves. Someone else is picking up most of the tab.

 

[JRR]

The question is, what is the cost of the food which is actually properly allocated to the food?

The food cost is not transparent as part of the sleeper fare. Further, as e know the sleeper fares differ from passenger to passenger.

So, if one can properly determine the cost of ruining a sleeper car and what is the cost of the food for those sleeper passengers, the the only question left is how you allocate the revenue - sleeper car v. Food.

It seems to me you can make it come out however you want.

I am

Not saying that all of this is not being properly allocated, just that there is room to make the losses appear where you want them.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

So, if one can properly determine the cost of ruining a sleeper car

I would think a sleeper car could be ruined at next to no cost; just drop it in the ocean like they do with old subway cars.

 

[JRR]

I would think a sleeper car could be ruined at next to no cost; just drop it in the ocean like they do with old subway cars.

Great idea. Drop it off Red Reef Park in Boca Raton and we’d have a new fishing and diving spot!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm not sure what airline executive said it but "What people want and what they are willing to pay for are two very different things" is one of the most truthful statements I have ever heard. If the true cost of a Amtrak hot breakfast is $75 would you pay it? How about $150 for a cooked to order steak dinner? The dinning car experience is great, but let's not fool ourselves. Someone else is picking up most of the tab.

My problem with Amtrak dining isn't the cost of the food. I spend $75 for breakfast on a weekly basis already so if the quality is there I'm only too happy to pay. The problem is that I've never seen Amtrak serve a breakfast entree that was worth more than one tenth of that to me. Something you may not have considered previously is that the quote you referenced is true in both directions. The US airline industry is itself subsidized above and beyond the airfare, taxes, fees, and surcharges which appear on your ticket receipt. Which means people who have no need or desire to fly are nonetheless paying for something they themselves do not want.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

I view Anderson as a ruthless big corporate guy. IMO, he doesn't seem to care about customer service or even the people employed on the LD trains. He speaks of those in the food service area as expendable. .Like many corporate executives, his motivation is solely about profit. On his quest to profitability, he wants to lay off those who he believes are not needed with no concern about jobs that people need to feed their family; just put them out on the street and don't worry about it. These comments might be a bit harsh but that's the impression that I have about this individual. We need to get a petition going to express how rail passengers feel about the direction that Amtrak is taking?

Congress required Amtrak to be run like a business, so Anderson is running it like a business now. I don't think it's anything personal from Anderson. Unfortunately the modern definition of "run like a business" is try to profit above all else. The flip side is if he can get Amtrak to show some form of profitability, maybe we won't have to deal as much with these mandates from congress.

Good point.

To be honest, I have mixed feelings about what Anderson is doing (and wants to do) with Amtrak. However, I don't necessarily see him wielding a machete and wildly cutting through a hedge. Rather, I see him taking instructions from Congress and from the Amtrak board and cutting through the hedge methodically with a hedge trimmer. Unfortunately, we rail travelers are getting caught up in all that.

I want, as much as anyone else for Amtrak to be profitable to some extent so it can survive, and I think Anderson is cognizant of that fact. One thing I think needs to happen is for us to pressure Congress to shift some money to Amtrak from less important things. I believe the money is there, but it's not in the right places. And I also understand that Anderson wants to show Amtrak to be profitable to Congress, as was mentioned above. So the upshot is that there is responsibility on the parts of both Anderson and Congress. They have to work together and get something done, because Amtrak will become a disaster if they don't. And we will be caught up in the fallout.

 

[Lonestar648]

Need to get the ear of the big pro-Amtrak folks in Congress. They need to be on the same page as far as the Amtrak message. They will know those members who are semi-pro Amtrak, those who have no opinion, and those so anti-Amtrak they will never change. Now the Pro-Amtrak members, what would they support that could get traction with the other members. Once know the key members, then members of their district or state need to be excited to contact them. I write my Senators, one who will not take a stand without Sen McConough, the other feels Amtrak is money pit, but isn't against passenger rail, my rep is retiring, so he isn't rocking the boat. Unfortunately, I have not been successful in getting my neighbors and friends to see Amtrak as a high priority issue now and in the future, They all feel Congress will do status Quo for near future, so put their focus on other issues.

 

[PeepersK]

That's one story. Another is Amtrak's successful partnership with Dunkin Donuts....

https://news.dunkindonuts.com/blog/blog_custom-20180418

This is not contracting out anything. It is just successful co-marketing of a product on board the train. Similar co-marketing is done to a lessor extent with several products, just look at menu display boards at the Acela Cafe. Pepsi, Sam Adams, etc are advertised with revenue furnished by these companies.

And that's probably the extent of how these F&B partnerships are going to be done at least for the foreseeable future.

Eventually, however, these F&B contractors are going to want to have more control over their service delivery involving their products, and that's when the Amtrak OBS employees' role will be diminished or eliminated.

 

[jis]

Meanwhile in the passenger train heaven of Switzerland ...

https://www.railjournal.com/index.php/main-line/switzerland-to-end-sbb-long-distance-monopoly.html?channel=524&utm_source=Email_marketing&utm_campaign=IRJ_Rail_Brief_Apr_26_2018&cmp=1&utm_medium=HTMLEmail

 

[frequentflyer]

Most LD trains are not going anywhere, they just will not grow. I expect the Superliner fleet to be refurbished, not grow in size. New corridor service will be the domain of cheaper to operate DMUs. And if Anderson had his wish, he would probably try to talk the states from Siemens locomotives and cars to Siemens DMUs. That would make Amtrak's upcoming order cheaper.

WIth DMUs in the future, does it make sense to go to EMD or GE and get an off the shelf locomotive for what LD trains left?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Most LD trains are not going anywhere, they just will not grow.

What is this theory based upon? Most long distance (overnight) trains have already "gone somewhere" and those few which remain are facing increasing maintenance and replacement costs along with decreasing market relevance. Not just in the US but all over the world. For more than a half century now the trend line for long distance trains has only moved in one direction. Despite claims and implications to the contrary there is no fundamental need or desire which secretly protects long distance trains from further erosion of mileage/frequency or abandonment.

I expect the Superliner fleet to be refurbished, not grow in size.

The first wave of Superliner cars is already pretty old, both in terms of required maintenance and their fundamental design philosophy. The last Superliner refurbishment program ran out of money forcing it to end early and incomplete. At this point it's probably not worth it to keep refurbishing tired designs from the 1970's. Either save/borrow enough to buy something from the current decade or admit the gig is up. Barring a substantial increase in expense recovery or an unexpected subsidy windfall Amtrak is likely to eventually find themselves forced to abandon long distance segments over time as they continue to lose irreparable/irreplaceable rolling stock to cowboy truck drivers and CSXT/AMTK's sloppy safety culture.

 

[Trogdor]

And if Anderson had his wish, he would probably try to talk the states from Siemens locomotives and cars to Siemens DMUs. That would make Amtrak's upcoming order cheaper.

Too late for that. Most of the Siemens locomotives have already been delivered, and the passenger cars are, more or less, right around the corner (probably far sooner than any switch to DMU could deliver).

 

[jis]

How did we arrive at a conclusion that DMUs are cheaper to purchase? Seems not to really align with the realities we have seen so far.

 

[frequentflyer]

And if Anderson had his wish, he would probably try to talk the states from Siemens locomotives and cars to Siemens DMUs. That would make Amtrak's upcoming order cheaper.

Too late for that. Most of the Siemens locomotives have already been delivered, and the passenger cars are, more or less, right around the corner (probably far sooner than any switch to DMU could deliver).

Very true, I forgot to add if Anderson could back in time.

 

[frequentflyer]

How did we arrive at a conclusion that DMUs are cheaper to purchase? Seems not to really align with the realities we have seen so far.

I stated cheaper to operate, it might be cheaper to purchase if Amtrak bulk buys and replaces the Amfleets and some Genesis with one order. And Anderson missed his opportunity to convince the states to buy DMUs instead which could have made the purchasing block for Amtrak even cheaper.

 

[jis]

I frankly don't see any evidence that Anderson has any depth of understanding of DMUs and their operating characteristics at all. He seems to have read a few rail rags from Europe and come to the conclusion that DMUs are the future. He talked about getting DMUs to replace Amfleet Is? He seemed to forget that most Amfleet 1s are used on the NEC where his outfit just acquired 75 new electric engines to pull trailer cars, and diesel anything would not work in the most heavily used anchor station of the NEC.

After he had stopped smoking whatever potent stuff he uses, and come down to earth with a coherent plan, instead of the equivalent of the one line tweets, it would be worth having a serious conversation.

How did we arrive at a conclusion that DMUs are cheaper to purchase? Seems not to really align with the realities we have seen so far.

I stated cheaper to operate, it might be cheaper to purchase if Amtrak bulk buys and replaces the Amfleets and some Genesis with one order. And Anderson missed his opportunity to convince the states to buy DMUs instead which could have made the purchasing block for Amtrak even cheaper.

DMUs are cheaper to operate as long your trains are shorter than 5 or 6 cars. After that it becomes quite questionable. They will work in many light corridors that we have today outside of the two coasts. They are not a panacea for all situations.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

If he was the ceo of delta, he's surely traveled in and out of Europe and most likely ridden European passenger trains more than most of us american based rail fans.

You can disagree with his thoughts and ideas, but he probably knows what he's talking about more than most people are giving him credit for.

 

[frequentflyer]

I frankly don't see any evidence that Anderson has any depth of understanding of DMUs and their operating characteristics at all. He seems to have read a few rail rags from Europe and come to the conclusion that DMUs are the future. He talked about getting DMUs to replace Amfleet Is? He seemed to forget that most Amfleet 1s are used on the NEC where his outfit just acquired 75 new electric engines to pull trailer cars, and diesel anything would not work in the most heavily used anchor station of the NEC.

After he had stopped smoking whatever potent stuff he uses, and come down to earth with a coherent plan, instead of the equivalent of the one line tweets, it would be worth having a serious conversation.

There is a work around for that, in the airline business and some extent railroad business, one negotiates a trade in of present asset. Amtrak did it with the SD40Fs on new F40s. Siemens would take that deal in a heart beat for 5 years or more guaranteed work and bigger contract.

How did we arrive at a conclusion that DMUs are cheaper to purchase? Seems not to really align with the realities we have seen so far.

I stated cheaper to operate, it might be cheaper to purchase if Amtrak bulk buys and replaces the Amfleets and some Genesis with one order. And Anderson missed his opportunity to convince the states to buy DMUs instead which could have made the purchasing block for Amtrak even cheaper.

DMUs are cheaper to operate as long your trains are shorter than 5 or 6 cars. After that it becomes quite questionable. They will work in many light corridors that we have today outside of the two coasts. They are not a panacea for all situations.

Then run two DMUs together. Before that though it allows Amtrak to have better yield management, just as Amtrak does with the frequently sold out Acela. You are right, DMUs would not be right for all circumstances but having one or fewer types of equipment yields lower costs. Again out of the airline playbook.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If he was the ceo of delta, he's surely traveled in and out of Europe and most likely ridden European passenger trains more than most of us american based rail fans.You can disagree with his thoughts and ideas, but he probably knows what he's talking about more than most people are giving him credit for.

You can reach virtually any corner and crevice in Europe with aircraft and/or private vehicles. I would not presume that a top brass airline executive had any specific need or desire to use and learn about passenger rail just because it happened to exist and be popular in an area he may or may not have explored extensively. This particular executive also made a name for himself railing against foreign airlines and the countries which may or may not have supported them financially. It was a startlingly aggressive and hypocritical series of rants that made him look reactionary and uninformed.

 

[frequentflyer]

Most LD trains are not going anywhere, they just will not grow.

What is this theory based upon? Most long distance (overnight) trains have already "gone somewhere" and those few which remain are facing increasing maintenance and replacement costs along with decreasing market relevance. Not just in the US but all over the world. For more than a half century now the trend line for long distance trains has only moved in one direction. Despite claims and implications to the contrary there is no fundamental need or desire which secretly protects long distance trains from further erosion of mileage/frequency or abandonment.

I expect the Superliner fleet to be refurbished, not grow in size.

The first wave of Superliner cars is already pretty old, both in terms of required maintenance and their fundamental design philosophy. The last Superliner refurbishment program ran out of money forcing it to end early and incomplete. At this point it's probably not worth it to keep refurbishing tired designs from the 1970's. Either save/borrow enough to buy something from the current decade or admit the gig is up. Barring a substantial increase in expense recovery or an unexpected subsidy windfall Amtrak is likely to eventually find themselves forced to abandon long distance segments over time as they continue to lose irreparable/irreplaceable rolling stock to cowboy truck drivers and CSXT/AMTK's sloppy safety culture.

Well, if the Superliners are not refurbished that means the more VLII cars for Western LD trains. Superliners carry more pax per car but I am not sure which is cheaper to maintain, a 30 year old Superliner or new VLII. Again, airline think, uniformity in equipment yields lower costs.

Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains.

 

[Palmetto]

"Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains."

Yup, those new dining car AKA sleeper lounges have be used somewhere.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

"Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains."

Yup, those new dining car AKA sleeper lounges have be used somewhere.

What do we need more of, Superliner or Viewliner? What do we have more of a shortage of? I know what new route I want and what kind of cars it needs.

 

[MikefromCrete]

"Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains."

Yup, those new dining car AKA sleeper lounges have be used somewhere.

People have been saying this for years on this forum. It hasn't happened yet.

 

[bretton88]

"Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains."

Yup, those new dining car AKA sleeper lounges have be used somewhere.

People have been saying this for years on this forum. It hasn't happened yet.

True, though we really haven't had someone so willing to make changes as Anderson at Amtrak for a long time.

 

[blueman271]

"Would not surprise me to see the Cap Ltd go single level. That will free up more Superliner cars for western LD trains."

Yup, those new dining car AKA sleeper lounges have be used somewhere.

Where would Amtrak get the coaches to make the CL single level?