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bretton88

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Mar 14, 2009
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Amtrak Study still Chugging along

Hey, its another money-wasting train study. Don't get me wrong, I live in Omaha and would love to get this service (I would use it quite a bit), but most studies come to nothing and are just a waste of $. Studies have to be the biggest scam ever. What do you guys think about it? Is it possible? Is this another waste of money on another study? I'm at least happy to see Missouri support more train service.
 
Well, if you don't have a current study, you can't build the train. Yeah, these things seem interminable, but you can't really expect them to appropriate a couple hundred million dollars based on something 6 or 7 years old. Since you have a legislature that turns down federal stimulus money and declines to furnish a home for indigent veterans, I doubt that intercity rail has much future in your community, study or no study.
 
Let's see . . . . .

BNSF, ex CB&Q up the east side of the river, CTC signals, part single, part double, approx 190 miles. Speed limits now mostly 60 mph with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passeger speed limit currently given. Fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours end to end.

Union Pacific, ex MoPac up the west side of the river, mostly CTC, but with 85 miles still ABS, approximately 198 miles. Speed limits now 60 mph, with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passenger speed limit currently given. fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours.

Historically, more passengers rode on the ex CB&Q trains on the east side of the River. Whether that was because there were more trains operated on this route or wheter more trains were operated on this route because the inherent demand was higher will require further study.

Based on the FRA track safety standards, a 79 mph passenger train speed limit can be instituted on either route with track conditions as is. Further analysis required to determine where lower than maximum speed limits can be raised and by how much. UP will likely want the remaining ABS portion converted to CTC.

It will be practical to reinstate a 4 hour passenger service on this route for about >>>wild guess. $10,000,000<<<< plus equipment and station costs, for about >>>>wild guess $15,000,000 <<<<

Now, where do I send my bill?

See how easy this stuff can be generated?
 
George Harris said:
Let's see . . . . .
BNSF, ex CB&Q up the east side of the river, CTC signals, part single, part double, approx 190 miles. Speed limits now mostly 60 mph with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passeger speed limit currently given. Fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours end to end.

Union Pacific, ex MoPac up the west side of the river, mostly CTC, but with 85 miles still ABS, approximately 198 miles. Speed limits now 60 mph, with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passenger speed limit currently given. fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours.

Historically, more passengers rode on the ex CB&Q trains on the east side of the River. Whether that was because there were more trains operated on this route or wheter more trains were operated on this route because the inherent demand was higher will require further study.

Based on the FRA track safety standards, a 79 mph passenger train speed limit can be instituted on either route with track conditions as is. Further analysis required to determine where lower than maximum speed limits can be raised and by how much. UP will likely want the remaining ABS portion converted to CTC.

It will be practical to reinstate a 4 hour passenger service on this route for about >>>wild guess. $10,000,000<<<< plus equipment and station costs, for about >>>>wild guess $15,000,000 <<<<

Now, where do I send my bill?

See how easy this stuff can be generated?
Click to expand...
Where do I get into the business of generating studies? o_O
 
birdy said:
Since you have a legislature that turns down federal stimulus money and declines to furnish a home for indigent veterans, I doubt that intercity rail has much future in your community, study or no study.
Click to expand...
not so fast. the missouri house, the source for the study's funding in this article, has been the only trouble spot for state-sponsored amtrak service. if this passes the house, the senate and governor are a done deal. yes, they studied a st. louis-springfield route and determined the cost/benefit wasn't there, but that was before all of the recent major legislation for passenger rail.

missouri turned down stimulus dollars that weren't in any way related to transportation.
 
DaveKCMO said:
birdy said:
Since you have a legislature that turns down federal stimulus money and declines to furnish a home for indigent veterans, I doubt that intercity rail has much future in your community, study or no study.
Click to expand...
not so fast. the missouri house, the source for the study's funding in this article, has been the only trouble spot for state-sponsored amtrak service. if this passes the house, the senate and governor are a done deal. yes, they studied a st. louis-springfield route and determined the cost/benefit wasn't there, but that was before all of the recent major legislation for passenger rail.

missouri turned down stimulus dollars that weren't in any way related to transportation.
Click to expand...

Well they won't regret it. The sales tax revenues in my town have gone up since they added rail service last December. How many towns can say that?
 
Being from Northwest Missouri, (St. Joseph in particular), this is something that lawmakers and residents have been pressing for years. Alot of us St. Joe residents remember about 8 years ago when to our surprise a Amtrak train came rolling through town. Turns out they were doing a test run between KCY-OMA. Got everyone's hopes up.
 
Green Maned Lion said:
George Harris said:
Let's see . . . . .
BNSF, ex CB&Q up the east side of the river, CTC signals, part single, part double, approx 190 miles. Speed limits now mostly 60 mph with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passeger speed limit currently given. Fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours end to end.

Union Pacific, ex MoPac up the west side of the river, mostly CTC, but with 85 miles still ABS, approximately 198 miles. Speed limits now 60 mph, with numerous slower points for curves, etc. No passenger speed limit currently given. fastest passenger train in the past about 4 hours.

Historically, more passengers rode on the ex CB&Q trains on the east side of the River. Whether that was because there were more trains operated on this route or wheter more trains were operated on this route because the inherent demand was higher will require further study.

Based on the FRA track safety standards, a 79 mph passenger train speed limit can be instituted on either route with track conditions as is. Further analysis required to determine where lower than maximum speed limits can be raised and by how much. UP will likely want the remaining ABS portion converted to CTC.

It will be practical to reinstate a 4 hour passenger service on this route for about >>>wild guess. $10,000,000<<<< plus equipment and station costs, for about >>>>wild guess $15,000,000 <<<<

Now, where do I send my bill?

See how easy this stuff can be generated?
Click to expand...
Where do I get into the business of generating studies? o_O
Click to expand...
You would have to start making out you know what you are talking about first......
 
Missouri has been supportive of train service before. This is a good time to institute passenger service. Is the 4 hour service feasible now? Or was that with higher speeds of the past? If its still four hours, this service could really be a success. On another idea, I heard that this would be a good test area for DMU's in corridor service. Is that possible? Would the FRA grant a waiver for this route? I am fairly knowledgeable about trains, but I have no knowledge about the tracks and freight south to KC (despite living in Omaha!).
 
It seems to me that this service would be a fantastic extension to the existing Missouri River Runner (or at least a cross-platform transfer), in that it could provide St. Louis folks a great connection to the Zephyr. I suspect the departure time from STL would be substantially later than the existing departure which has people leaving STL at 7:55 AM on the Eagle, connecting to a bus in Springfield, then to the Zephyr in Galesburg.

Instead, one could conceivably put a new train out of STL around 1 PM, getting to KCY at 5:30, and hitting Omaha at 9:30 (assuming 4 hours), with an hour connection window for the westbound Zephyr.

Rafi
 
DaveKCMO said:
they studied a St. Louis-Springfield route and determined the cost/benefit wasn't there, but that was before all of the recent major legislation for passenger rail.
Click to expand...
That one was an honest and correct conclusion, and would still be. The rail route is simply too slow. It is a function of curature, not track conditions, so for it to be other than fairly slow, a tremendous amount would have to be speed on building a new alignment for a large portion of the route.

While I have no idea concerning the train density as a proportion of line capacity on either of the lines between KC and Omaha, this would appear to be one of the more workable routes to reinstate. The Missouri Pacific ran a day train St. Louis - Kansas City - Omaha called the Missouri River Eagle that apparently did quite well up to the early 1960's.
 
I was at a meeting on Saturday with ProRail Nebraska. I thought the amount of time it would take was too long to get from KCY. If some time could get chopped off, then I think it would be a success. Alot of folks would use it for NASCAR and Chiefs/Royals game. Alot of folks on the road after these events that are driving well over the .08 alcohol limit.
 
RailFanLNK said:
I was at a meeting on Saturday with ProRail Nebraska. I thought the amount of time it would take was too long to get from KCY. If some time could get chopped off, then I think it would be a success. Alot of folks would use it for NASCAR and Chiefs/Royals game. Alot of folks on the road after these events that are driving well over the .08 alcohol limit.
Click to expand...
RailfanLNK, what sort of times are they giving? Do you have a link to the report?
 
DaveKCMO said:
birdy said:
Since you have a legislature that turns down federal stimulus money and declines to furnish a home for indigent veterans, I doubt that intercity rail has much future in your community, study or no study.
Click to expand...
not so fast. the missouri house, the source for the study's funding in this article, has been the only trouble spot for state-sponsored amtrak service. if this passes the house, the senate and governor are a done deal. yes, they studied a st. louis-springfield route and determined the cost/benefit wasn't there, but that was before all of the recent major legislation for passenger rail.

missouri turned down stimulus dollars that weren't in any way related to transportation.
Click to expand...
And I bet that the house will turn down, then approve, then turn down, but ultimately approve funding for Amtrak, the stimulus package, indigent care, etc. at least two more times before the session ends next week. That's just the Missouri way.
 
Update on this.

"Schaaf’s plan for Amtrak study derailed in Senate"

http://www.stjoenews.net/news/2009/may/06/...d-senate/?local

Looks like they aren't going to focus specifically on this route. I think it would be a really great connection, STL and KC to Denver would be a much more direct trip.

As far as the STL to Springfield route, seems ridership would be a lot higher if they extended it to Tulsa and OKC from Springfield.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know ProRail Nebraska has a link on www.trainweb.org. But I wasn't too enthused about the amount of time it was going to take. I had season tickets to the KC Chiefs for 17 years until this season and I can get to Arrowhead in 3 hours from my front porch step. But the reason I can get there quickly is because they built a 4 lane highway from LNK to Nebraska City about 10 years ago chopping off around 25 minutes on HWY 2 which was so hilly. They talked about the route going through Falls City NE and near Rulo "if" I remember correctly.
 
True, but Lincoln isn't the target audience for this thing. From an Omaha perspective it would be a godsend. Now it would be even better if they offered shuttle service to MCI airport. I know a lot of people that take the various shuttle services from downtown Omaha to MCI.
 
Guest said:
True, but Lincoln isn't the target audience for this thing. From an Omaha perspective it would be a godsend. Now it would be even better if they offered shuttle service to MCI airport. I know a lot of people that take the various shuttle services from downtown Omaha to MCI.
Click to expand...
When the CB&Q/BN operated Kansas City-Omaha trains, the trains continued on to Lincoln. Also the CB&Q/BN trains from Chicago to Lincoln such as the Nebraska Zephyr and Aksarben Zephyr continued through Omaha and terminated in Lincoln. It would make sense to have any new service from Kansas City to Omaha continue to Lincoln since passenger service is current operating between Omaha and Lincoln via the CZ.
 
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