Any missing trains today (Oct 1)?

[Tracktwentynine]

Well, it's here. October 1. PRIIA deadline for state funding agreements.

I haven't heard that any trains have disappeared, but I also know that some states had failed to come to agreements, including New York state and Indiana.

So, did Amtrak blink or are these trains gone as of today?

 

[user 1215]

I think they still need 180 (?) day notices to cancel a train.

 

[John Bobinyec]

I think they still need 180 (?) day notices to cancel a train.

I think I read somewhere that Mr. Boardman sent a letter to each of the states a while back, and that serves as the notice.

jb

 

[Eric S]

I thought NARP posted somewhere (of course now I can't find it) that Amtrak would continue to operate without an agreement until Oct 16, as they continue negotiating with IL, IN, and NY.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I thought NARP posted somewhere (of course now I can't find it) that Amtrak would continue to operate without an agreement until Oct 16, as they continue negotiating with IL, IN, and NY.

That is my understanding too.

Politico's Morning Transportation Report states:

Section 209, [of 2008's PRIIA] dealing with state-supported routes, expires Oct. 16 (five years after enactment and the drop-dead last date for state-supported route deals).

 

[user 1215]

So, in list form, which are the routes that are at risk?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

So, in list form, which are the routes that are at risk?

I don't have a list form of routes, but the same report from Politico states that the states of NY, RI & Ind. are still working agreements.

But I wonder if that is all the states?

 

[CHamilton]

As far as I can tell, 15 of 19 states have reached agreement with Amtrak (list from here).

Virginia, Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Wisconsin, Oregon, Washington, North Carolina, Maine, Pennsylvania, Michigan, the CCJPA in California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont

That leaves New York, Rhode Island, Illinois and Indiana.

Is that correct? Not sure about Rhode Island: do they have any trains that would be covered under PRIIA 209? Have the remaining agencies in California signed yet?

 

[Eric S]

So, in list form, which are the routes that are at risk?

I don't have a list form of routes, but the same report from Politico states that the states of NY, RI & Ind. are still working agreements.

But I wonder if that is all the states?

Not sure why RI would need an agreement?

I read it was IL, IN, and NY.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

So, in list form, which are the routes that are at risk?

I don't have a list form of routes, but the same report from Politico states that the states of NY, RI & Ind. are still working agreements.

But I wonder if that is all the states?

Not sure why RI would need an agreement?

I read it was IL, IN, and NY.

THAT sounds more like it.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

If the 3 states are NY, IL, and IN, then the list of routes is:

• New YorkEmpire Service
• Adirondack
• Maple Leaf (south of Niagra Falls)

[*]Indiana

• Hoosier State

[*]Illinois

• Lincoln Service
• Saluki/Illini
• Illinois Zephyr/Carl Sandburg
• And presuming they don't ever come to an agreement, it would also affect the yet-to-start routes:Black Hawk
• Moline train

 

[Eric S]

I wonder how the Hiawatha would be affected. I believe the agreement between IL and WI is that IL funds 25%, WI 75%. WI has evidently come to an agreement with Amtrak, but IL has yet to do so.

EDIT: I suppose the agreement between WI and Amtrak could state what the total costs that the states have to cover include, and that WI and IL would split that number 75/25.

 

[afigg]

That leaves New York, Rhode Island, Illinois and Indiana.

Is that correct? Not sure about Rhode Island: do they have any trains that would be covered under PRIIA 209? Have the remaining agencies in California signed yet?

Rhode Island has never been on the list of states that are the hook for state subsidies. CT and MA had to provide subsidies for the NHV-SPG corridor and apparently have signed their agreements. So as of late last week, the remaining states & corridors were NY, IL, IN, and the Surfliner & San Joaquin in CA. Amtrak may have to work under temporary extensions, but NY, IL, Surfliner & San Joaquin are going to reach an agreement sooner or later. The fate of the Hoosier State remains open.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

If the 3 states are NY, IL, and IN, then the list of routes is:

• New YorkEmpire Service
• Adirondack
• Maple Leaf (south of Niagra Falls)

[*]Indiana

• Hoosier State

[*]Illinois

• Lincoln Service
• Saluki/Illini
• Illinois Zephyr/Carl Sandburg
• And presuming they don't ever come to an agreement, it would also affect the yet-to-start routes:Black Hawk
• Moline train

Of note, I read somewhere - I can't remember where, maybe even here? - that NY and VT have come to an agreement for NY to chip in money for the Ethan Allen. And Maine has agreed to pay for New Hampshire's Downeaster service.

 

[Eric S]

Ah, yes, I forgot that CA is essentially 3 separate operating entities now, rather than just the state.

 

[user 1215]

Maple Leaf would be an interesting case study. It goes through two states, though one is in another country. It may be difficult to make this one an exclusively New York sponsored train. Does Canada pay for any part of it, or does Amtrak pay Canada?

 

[battalion51]

Also, don't forget, for the most part most of these routes wouldn't need 180 day notice because they're covered by other services. For example the Hoosier State is covered by the Cardinal. Most of Empire Service is covered by the Lake Shore Limited. Saluki/Illini is covered by the City of New Orleans. Even in the case of Niagra Falls where the Lake Shore doesn't cover it, all Amtrak has to do is put a Thruway Bus in and that counts. The best example I can think of where train service disappeared overnight is the Palmetto cut back in 2004. To this day there is still a Thruway Bus covering all of the stations (plus a few new stops) that the Palmetto covered between JAX and LAK.

 

[the_traveler]

RI had me confused. The only trains thru RI are on the NEC, which is Amtrak owned and part of the National network and also exempt from the provisions.

As far as the ML, from Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto it is a VIA Rail train. (That is why you can't get an AGR award to Toronto, because Amtrak does not operate to Toronto, even though Amtrak cars do. Once over the border, it is totally staffed by VIA employees.) You can only redeem AGR to Niagara Falls, NY - beyond that you must pay. (Amtrak crews and trains do operate to Montreal and Vancouver, though.)

 

[gaspeamtrak]

Maple Leaf would be an interesting case study. It goes through two states, though one is in another country. It may be difficult to make this one an exclusively New York sponsored train. Does Canada pay for any part of it, or does Amtrak pay Canada?

Sorry Ontario is a province in Canada not a state. :blink: Boy you must have flunked out in Geography!

 

[Nathanael]

As far as I can tell, 15 of 19 states have reached agreement with Amtrak (list from here).

Virginia, Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas, Wisconsin, Oregon, Washington, North Carolina, Maine, Pennsylvania, Michigan, the CCJPA in California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont

That leaves New York, Rhode Island, Illinois and Indiana.

Is that correct? Not sure about Rhode Island: do they have any trains that would be covered under PRIIA 209? Have the remaining agencies in California signed yet?

After mentally running through the states with short corridors, that leaves New York, New Hampshire, Illinois, Indiana, and CalTrans in California.
I am quite sure the New York and Illinois trains are going to keep running. The state governments in both states tend to be run by backroom deals, and in both states it's quite possible for the governor to come up with "temporary money" if negotiations are taking extra time.

I would expect the trains to keep running in California (Surfliner and San Joaquin) but I'm not actually quite as sure about it. California has had stupid "government shutdown" stunts before. If they stopped they'd probably come back quickly.

As for Indiana, we're mostly expecting the Hoosier State to end, I believe.

New Hampshire is a weird one. It's been freeloading on Massachusetts and Maine. I believe that Massachusetts and Maine are continuing to let it freeload. The PRIIA rules on cost allocation do NOT require that all of the involved states on a route pay for the train, nor do they require that costs be allocated fairly between multiple states on a route. I believe the "75/25" split on the Hiawathas is remaining intact. (In fact, I'm pretty sure Illinois is permitted to pay for the Hoosier State, or even the Heartland Flyer, if it *wants* to!)

Regarding the Maple Leaf: it is operated by VIA crews in Canada and is considered a VIA train there. Effectively, it is two trains, an "Empire Service" from NY to Niagara Falls and a VIA train from Niagara Falls to Toronto. (I'm not sure whether the changeover is at Niagara Falls NY or Niagara Falls CA.) Revenue is split between Amtrak and VIA. VIA pays Amtrak something (not sure whether it's market-rate or not) for use of the rolling stock and locomotives, and pays for "its part" of the fuel (again, not sure whether it's market-rate or not).

 

[jis]

Maple Leaf would be an interesting case study. It goes through two states, though one is in another country. It may be difficult to make this one an exclusively New York sponsored train. Does Canada pay for any part of it, or does Amtrak pay Canada?

What's so interesting about it? It really is two trains using the same equipment with passengers allowed to ride through. Whatever Amtrak was paying to run it now gets covered by NY State. Whatever Canada was paying or not for it, remains the same. NY State may choose to continue to run it or not through NY State. Canada may choose to run it or not in Canada. In Canada it is a VIA train, not an Amtrak train with a different VIA number, and VIA tariff for intra-Canada journeys. The international tickets are essentially two tickets, one from US point to border and the other from border to Canadian point.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Maple Leaf becomes a VIA Train @ the Niagara, Ontario Station Stop when the Crews are Changed out and even the Snacks in the Cafe are changed out for 'Canadian" Products even though lots of it is exactly the same stuff! (Well, they do have Coke and the Beer and Whiskey is Better! :giggle: )The Amtrak Equipment is run to Toronto as a VIA Train, turns the next Morning and the same process is repeated in Reverse @ the Niagara Falls, On Station!

As to Revenue, VIA receives the Ticket Revenue from the Stop @ the Niagara Falls,ON Station to Toronto! (there are also stops in St. Catherines, Aldershot and Oakville,ON).While there is no Business Class per se on the VIA Train, it only costs $1 CDN to ride ion the Business Class/Cafe car from the Border to Toronto! I have no idea how VIA reimburses Amtrak for the use of the Equipment/Fuel etc. or What the Deal is between Canada and the US as to Customs/Immigration Services?? (Canada does theirs @ the VIA Station in Niagara Falls,ON/ the US does theirs @ the Niagara Falls,NY Amtrak Station)

Edit: Posted while jis Post was being processed! I have no idea if the Harper Government and VIA will continue to fund the Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto Portion of this Route, they seem to pushing everything onto the GO System (Busses/Commuter Rail) run by Toronto and the Provence of Ontario!

 

[fairviewroad]

So, in list form, which are the routes that are at risk?

Broadly speaking, the list of Amtrak routes that are at risk can be found here.

NY State may choose to continue to run it or not through NY State. Canada may choose to run it or not in Canada. In Canada it is a VIA train, not an Amtrak train with a different VIA number, and VIA tariff for intra-Canada journeys.

Of course, if NY State decided not to run their section of the route, then VIA would be in the position of having to find equipment to operate "their" train. But that certainly

wouldn't be NY or Amtrak's problem.

 

[the_traveler]

Maple Leaf would be an interesting case study. It goes through two states, though one is in another country. It may be difficult to make this one an exclusively New York sponsored train. Does Canada pay for any part of it, or does Amtrak pay Canada?

Sorry Ontario is a province in Canada not a state. :blink: Boy you must have flunked out in Geography!

I thought Canada was the 51st state of the US? :giggle:

 

[bgiaquin]

I thought Illinois was rail-friendly? How could they not have an agreement?