Are Amtrak Sleeper Fares Going up Sharply?

[amamba]

While I hate to come to the defense of dlagrua, the official unemployment number is certainly not an accurate picture of unemployment in this country, IMO. I does not count those that are forced to work part time while they would prefer to work full time, and of course it also doesn't count those who have gotten so frustrated with long term unemployment that they have ceased looking for a job. And there have been some great articles in the New York Times about how long term unemployment is unfortunately something that is happening more now to those that are 50+.

Additionally, while college grads have a much lower unemployment rate than those without college degrees, the poor economy for the past few years has been disproportionately brutal to young people. Recent college grads are having a very hard time finding work, and when they do find jobs, it is often at a lower pay than a recent college grad would have earned in 2005. Starting off your professional career at a lower pay can actually cause a significant lifetime decrease in actual earnings.

 

[BobWeaver]

...It does not count those that are forced to work part time while they would prefer to work full time...

Right, which is underemployment, not unemployment.

...and of course it also doesn't count those who have gotten so frustrated with long term unemployment that they have ceased looking for a job.

Right, since discouraged workers are no longer in the labor market. The unemployment measurement is more dynamic than people give it credit for. It seeks to measure those that are active in the job market. Those that have given up on finding a job are not included, since they are not actively pursuing work.

 

[amamba]

Bob, I get what you are saying about the official rate, my point is that it is not a complete measure of the state of the economy. But I am as bleeding heart as they come.

 

[Ryan]

Bob, I get what you are saying about the official rate, my point is that it is not a complete measure of the state of the economy. But I am as bleeding heart as they come.

True, but what the rate is matter less than the comparison to what it was before, and for that the "official" definition is what people talk about.

 

[amamba]

True, I would agree that the economy is not in a depression. but that doesn't mean that long term, structural unemployment is not a problem.

 

[Meenie]

Just checked on a possible Chicago trip for us next year in May/June 2012. I could only check prices as far as March but I noticed that the low bucket prices for sleepers have risen considerably; on the order of 30%. Anyone else experiencing these types of price increases, this far out? I can't imagine that Amtrak has raised prices this much but who knows?

What does "low bucket" mean???

 

[Eric S]

Just checked on a possible Chicago trip for us next year in May/June 2012. I could only check prices as far as March but I noticed that the low bucket prices for sleepers have risen considerably; on the order of 30%. Anyone else experiencing these types of price increases, this far out? I can't imagine that Amtrak has raised prices this much but who knows?

What does "low bucket" mean???

Bucket = fare level

 

[Anderson]

Bob, I get what you are saying about the official rate, my point is that it is not a complete measure of the state of the economy. But I am as bleeding heart as they come.

True, but what the rate is matter less than the comparison to what it was before, and for that the "official" definition is what people talk about.

Why don't we all agree on the following: The economy sucks. Whether it's a recession (a technical term) or not and whether someone is playing with statistics, it's not a good economy. How bad depends on where you are, but this is not the 1990s by a long shot. Is it getting better? Maybe, but there are a lot of factors that are still locked up.

As to Amtrak...even if it didn't have a mandate to cut its losses and simply had a fixed government grant with few directions (if any) as to how to use it, I'd still expect them to try and lose as little as possible...if just so as to be able to maximize the service provided and be able to acquire equipment. For the record, the unions are a part of the problem here (wage/salary/benefit increases account for all of the increase in projected operating losses in their five year plan...and for 3/5 of the increases in Amtrak expenses in spite of making up less than 50% of those expenses now). But this is the start of another rant that hits a bit more broadly, so I'll shut up now.

 

[Ryan]

That's pretty close. I'll agree to the economy sucks, but is getting better by most yardsticks. We are not and have not been in a recession since mid-2009.

I disagree that unions are a part of the problem - people are expensive at any organization whether they're unionized or not.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

...It does not count those that are forced to work part time while they would prefer to work full time...

Right, which is underemployment, not unemployment.

...and of course it also doesn't count those who have gotten so frustrated with long term unemployment that they have ceased looking for a job.

Right, since discouraged workers are no longer in the labor market. The unemployment measurement is more dynamic than people give it credit for. It seeks to measure those that are active in the job market. Those that have given up on finding a job are not included, since they are not actively pursuing work.

Not entirely true.

It doesn't count those that are looking for work but are no longer collecting unemployment benefits. So if you are living in your parent's basement and sending out 100 resumes a day but not collecting unemployment benefits, you don't get counted. A lot of people have simply reached the end of the UC rope.

 

[amamba]

Bob, I get what you are saying about the official rate, my point is that it is not a complete measure of the state of the economy. But I am as bleeding heart as they come.

True, but what the rate is matter less than the comparison to what it was before, and for that the "official" definition is what people talk about.

Interesting article today in the New York Times about this very topic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/14/business/economy/14unemployed.html?_r=1&ref=us

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering. And that only a fraction of jobs lost during the recession have returned.

 

[Ryan]

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering.

That's not really the takeaway that I get - the economy is recovering, perhaps not as quickly as the unemployment rate suggests but recovering nonetheless. We're adding jobs, not shedding them.
It's also worth recalling that the unemployment rate is considered to be a lagging economic indicator.

 

[amamba]

Well we will need to agree to disagree. The headline on the paper copy reads "Numbers pointing to recovery in Minnesota may be misleading".

 

[Eris]

I don't know about any of the rest if this, but I can say that there appears to no longer be any bucket pricing for family bedrooms on the Coast Starlight- $766 between Los Angeles and Seattle, whether all three are available or just one. A few years ago, that first Family Bedroom was $368 (actually, I don't remember for sure if that was the first available- I see that I booked it 6 days ahead of time, on December 5 for travel on December 11, 2007), clearly a steal for four people who like eating in the dining car, and pretty reasonable for a budget minded smaller family preferring the comfort of the train to flying (that'd be me).

Now, for me riding on my own with my two young kids, it's completely out of the question at $766; we'll be going coach (which at $180 for one adult and two kids, with AAA discount, just barely beats flying for the fare). May 17th's #14 has two family bedrooms left (at $766), 8+ roomettes ($422; low bucket is $222), and 6 bedrooms ($1105; low bucket is $489, I think).

So, yeah, I'd answer yes to the question given in the topic of this thread; over the past couple of years, the sleepers have gone from something I can consider to something I really cannot; the three of us would be comfortable enough in a roomette, but from what I understand Amtrak will no longer book a roomette for 3 even with two of them being small, though they did a few years ago for us. So, coach it is. I hope it's not worse than Greyhound would have been, y'know? We're nice, quiet folks, looking forward to the pace and camaraderie of the train... hope we can get some sleep, too.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering.

That's not really the takeaway that I get - the economy is recovering, perhaps not as quickly as the unemployment rate suggests but recovering nonetheless. We're adding jobs, not shedding them.
It's also worth recalling that the unemployment rate is considered to be a lagging economic indicator.

I work in the glove and safety business. The production of all useful product comes from manufacturing, and manufacturing requires, both in legality and in sanity, safety equipment, be it gloves, respirators, eye protection, or what have you. We are, very much, a leading indicator of increases in economic activity. There have been very little of this.

The only thing I have noticed recently economically is the skyrocketing costs of raw materials, the cotton shortage, and the resultant sky rocketing costs of the products I sell.

 

[Guest]

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering.

That's not really the takeaway that I get - the economy is recovering, perhaps not as quickly as the unemployment rate suggests but recovering nonetheless. We're adding jobs, not shedding them.
It's also worth recalling that the unemployment rate is considered to be a lagging economic indicator.

Unemployment is considered a lagging indicator by the financial engineers who are employed and are only worried about the DJIA and how fat their bonuses are. Unemployment is the true indicator of the average joe who is worried about paying their bills.

 

[jis]

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering.

That's not really the takeaway that I get - the economy is recovering, perhaps not as quickly as the unemployment rate suggests but recovering nonetheless. We're adding jobs, not shedding them.
It's also worth recalling that the unemployment rate is considered to be a lagging economic indicator.

One of the supposed leading indicators is rail freight loading and that seems to have been recovering smartly, though it is still lower than just before the crash.

 

[Anderson]

Basically saying that while the unemployment rate is down, it doesn't necessarily mean that economy is recovering.

That's not really the takeaway that I get - the economy is recovering, perhaps not as quickly as the unemployment rate suggests but recovering nonetheless. We're adding jobs, not shedding them.
It's also worth recalling that the unemployment rate is considered to be a lagging economic indicator.

I work in the glove and safety business. The production of all useful product comes from manufacturing, and manufacturing requires, both in legality and in sanity, safety equipment, be it gloves, respirators, eye protection, or what have you. We are, very much, a leading indicator of increases in economic activity. There have been very little of this.

The only thing I have noticed recently economically is the skyrocketing costs of raw materials, the cotton shortage, and the resultant sky rocketing costs of the products I sell.

I'm in specialized manufacturing. Somehow, we dodged this one, but things are definitely not picking back up. Now, granted we're a heavily lagging business (we generally expect 18-month lag time on the economy at large). We're not seeing too much material cost pressure...but then again, we can pass most of that along quietly, and I haven't been over that part of the cost accounting in a while.

 

[Meenie]

A lot of people seem to think its ok for Amtrak to charge outrageous prices for their sleepers because Amtrak is losing money and they have to make it back somehow. I think that's backward thinking. If you give people a better deal, they're more likely to go with you. Also they need to stop giving the song and dance they do to give you the price for a roomette or sleeper. Just put a price on it, period. All this stuff of "well, you're paying for the price of a coach seat first, then you pay an accommodation fee" just doesn't cut it. It leaves people scratching their head and going "that doesn't make sense... do I get a coach seat also? Can I go and sit in a coach seat then come back to my roomette?" It's far too confusing. If you want to justify the price, say you're getting a seat that lays flat into a bed, a private area, meals are included, and more attention from the staff and for that you pay $XX. Make it sensible.

Suddenly they're paying twice the cost of an airline ticket to have a seat in a box. No airline seats don't turn into beds, but to go from the east coast to the west coast doesn't take three days on an plane either.

Amtrak needs to bring the romance back to riding the train. They need to focus on the camaraderie.

1. When you buy a reserved coach ticket, you should be assigned a seat. You should be asked if you prefer a window seat or an aisle seat and if those seats are sold out, it should plainly state that - first come, first served - if you're making the effort to buy your ticket in advance, you should get a choice of seats in advance.

2. Families/ people with kids/groups with kids should be placed together on the same car.

3. People traveling alone, couples, adults, should be placed on a more "quiet" car that is farther back; i.e. the kids shouldn't be trouping back and forth through that car. Kids are great/ families are great but older adults have been there and done that and shouldn't have to deal with it on a 2 or 3 day trip in an uncomfortable seat. On my last trip on the Cardinal, there was a big group of people with a lot of young teens and older kids (I'd guess 9 to 14). They were good kids, they weren't unruly or loud, but they were constantly going back and forth to the cafe car. Kids are bored just sitting in their seat, they don't want to read a book, they want to have fun and the train trip should be fun for them. But it was annoying that they were constantly walking back and forth and (the worse part) constantly making the doors open and close.... hiss bang hiss bang hiss bang.

4. Add a game car. Big round tables and have some games available to use - monopoly, risk, Sorry, Rumikub, cards. Games that take a while to play and make the time go by. This would give kids something fun to do, also adults who like to play games and socialize and it would keep the cafe car from being so crowded that you can't find a place to sit, have a drink and a snack and get away from sitting in the same seat for hours and hours.

5. Make sure the staff is friendly and customer aware. This is a service industry, if you aren't nice to your customers (even when they may not be!) you shouldn't be working there. ON my last trip I watched as two older ladies came in to go to the dining car. They were told to sit in the cafe car and t hey'd be told when to come back to the dining car. They did. Then the man who worked in the cafe snack bar motioned to them to come up there. But then the man who worked in the dining car snapped at them saying "Sit down until I call you. I'll tell you when I'm ready for you". These ladies were quite upset. They didn't do anything wrong, they did as they were told and it was absolutely unreasonable for them to be treated like that. The man who worked the dining car may have been having a bad day, may have been rushing because he was behind, may have many other problems but none of that should affect his treatment of his customers. I work in a hospital, another service industry, and hospitals have begun to realize that they way we treat our customers has a direct relation on whether we continue to get their business and whether they recommend us to others.

6. The picture they show of the roomette shows two chairs and a toilet. Is the toilet sitting out in the open as it appears in the picture? Sorry, that's disgusting if that's true. There should be a wall or at least a curtain.

7. on coach cars, put curtains at the seats so people can feel a little more private as they sleep, and they can block the light at night - it's hard to sleep with a light shining in your face. (I have noticed some trains have better lighting than others.)

Oh I could go on and on but think about it - if riding the train was a better experience, more people would want to do it and Amtrak would make money.

 

[Minnesota Amtrak Rider]

I completely agree that Amtrak sleeper fares have skyrocketed in the past few years. I have been a loyal Amtrak rider and traveled in sleepers for many years, but the fares have reached the point that I will no longer consider long-distance Amtrak travel. To illustrate the point, I priced both coach and sleeper fares on the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Seattle compared to non-stop airfare currently available. For travel in July/August/September, one-way Empire Builder coach fares are usually between $205-267 and the sleeper fare (1 adult in a roomette) is usually between $619-714. By comparison, there are many dates where the one-way airfare is only $150 for a non-stop flight between Minneapolis and Seattle. Thus, Amtrak coach is considerably more expensive than flying and the sleeper is at least four times more expensive for a single adult. This doesn't even take into account all the money you would spend on food while traveling Amtrak coach. It's getting to the point where I could go on a one-week cruise for little more than the cost of spending a couple of days in a tiny Amtrak roomette with indifferent service and mediocre food. Unless the fares return to more reasonable levels, my overnight long-distance Amtrak trips are probably a thing of the past.

 

[AlanB]

A lot of people seem to think its ok for Amtrak to charge outrageous prices for their sleepers because Amtrak is losing money and they have to make it back somehow. I think that's backward thinking. If you give people a better deal, they're more likely to go with you.

We don't think that its ok, or perhaps we'd all rather that they didn't charge so much. That doesn't change the fact that the trains are largely selling out. If you have a mandate to try and make money and your sleepers are selling out, why on God's green earth would you lower prices?

Yes, if they weren't selling out, then they should be lowering prices. But if the rooms aren't going empty, then you pretty much have to charge what the market will bear when the Fed is trying to get you to cut the losses.

Also they need to stop giving the song and dance they do to give you the price for a roomette or sleeper. Just put a price on it, period. All this stuff of "well, you're paying for the price of a coach seat first, then you pay an accommodation fee" just doesn't cut it. It leaves people scratching their head and going "that doesn't make sense... do I get a coach seat also? Can I go and sit in a coach seat then come back to my roomette?" It's far too confusing. If you want to justify the price, say you're getting a seat that lays flat into a bed, a private area, meals are included, and more attention from the staff and for that you pay $XX. Make it sensible.

First, in Amtrak's defense, that has always been the way things are done. Changing that policy 40 years ago would have confused everyone familiar with trains back then.

Second, they don't say that they're selling you a coach seat. They say that they're charging you a railfare. That is the basic cost of transportation from point A to point B. You then pay an accommodation fee or upgrade charge if you prefer for special treatment as it were. Be that a sleeper, First class service on Acela, or Business Class on any other train.

Suddenly they're paying twice the cost of an airline ticket to have a seat in a box. No airline seats don't turn into beds, but to go from the east coast to the west coast doesn't take three days on an plane either.

Yes, you can indeed fly much faster. So what? It's a choice one makes. Do you want to get there in a hurry or do you want to take you time and see something of this big beautiful country?

You also don't get meals on the airplane either.

Amtrak needs to bring the romance back to riding the train. They need to focus on the camaraderie.

Amtrak already takes flack from critics as being a "land cruise" and asking why is the public subsidizing someone's cruise. Bringing back the romance would only serve to add fuel to the fire regarding subsidies.

1. When you buy a reserved coach ticket, you should be assigned a seat. You should be asked if you prefer a window seat or an aisle seat and if those seats are sold out, it should plainly state that - first come, first served - if you're making the effort to buy your ticket in advance, you should get a choice of seats in advance.

This is a mixed bag. Yes, it would be nice to have that and many people would prefer it. The problem is that it reduces train's overall through capacity. And there are those who prefer the "free for all" method, especially on the NEC for example.

2. Families/ people with kids/groups with kids should be placed together on the same car.
3. People traveling alone, couples, adults, should be placed on a more "quiet" car that is farther back; i.e. the kids shouldn't be trouping back and forth through that car. Kids are great/ families are great but older adults have been there and done that and shouldn't have to deal with it on a 2 or 3 day trip in an uncomfortable seat. On my last trip on the Cardinal, there was a big group of people with a lot of young teens and older kids (I'd guess 9 to 14). They were good kids, they weren't unruly or loud, but they were constantly going back and forth to the cafe car. Kids are bored just sitting in their seat, they don't want to read a book, they want to have fun and the train trip should be fun for them. But it was annoying that they were constantly walking back and forth and (the worse part) constantly making the doors open and close.... hiss bang hiss bang hiss bang.

Again, that would potentially reduce capacity on the train. Not to mention that it would be illegal as it's a form of segregation.

4. Add a game car. Big round tables and have some games available to use - monopoly, risk, Sorry, Rumikub, cards. Games that take a while to play and make the time go by. This would give kids something fun to do, also adults who like to play games and socialize and it would keep the cafe car from being so crowded that you can't find a place to sit, have a drink and a snack and get away from sitting in the same seat for hours and hours.

Amtrak actually has this on the Coast Starlight. But this comes back to not having the money as well as the equipment to do so. And asking the taxpayers, at least for some taxpayers, to subsidize some kids playing games on the train isn't going to go over very well. Heck, many places can't even get people to vote to fund the schools, something far more important (especially since kids not in school tend to end up being kids in jail, which also costs money).

5. Make sure the staff is friendly and customer aware. This is a service industry, if you aren't nice to your customers (even when they may not be!) you shouldn't be working there. ON my last trip I watched as two older ladies came in to go to the dining car. They were told to sit in the cafe car and t hey'd be told when to come back to the dining car. They did. Then the man who worked in the cafe snack bar motioned to them to come up there. But then the man who worked in the dining car snapped at them saying "Sit down until I call you. I'll tell you when I'm ready for you". These ladies were quite upset. They didn't do anything wrong, they did as they were told and it was absolutely unreasonable for them to be treated like that. The man who worked the dining car may have been having a bad day, may have been rushing because he was behind, may have many other problems but none of that should affect his treatment of his customers. I work in a hospital, another service industry, and hospitals have begun to realize that they way we treat our customers has a direct relation on whether we continue to get their business and whether they recommend us to others.

Amtrak is working on this, but it's not as easy and as simple as it sounds.

And in the case of your example, it sounds like there was also some miscommunication amongst the crew. Granted it should not have been taken out on the ladies.

6. The picture they show of the roomette shows two chairs and a toilet. Is the toilet sitting out in the open as it appears in the picture? Sorry, that's disgusting if that's true. There should be a wall or at least a curtain.

It is exactly as it appears. Some people like them, some don't. That however is only for the single level Viewliner sleepers, it does not apply to the bi-level Superliner sleepers. The new Viewliner sleepers that Amtrak just ordered will not have the toilet in the room.

7. on coach cars, put curtains at the seats so people can feel a little more private as they sleep, and they can block the light at night - it's hard to sleep with a light shining in your face. (I have noticed some trains have better lighting than others.)

It wouldn't be possible to put curtains between the two seats and even on the end of the row. Aside from the fact that people would accidentally wreck them in a matter of weeks, it would probably also be considered a safety hazard by the FRA.

 

[Jay]

We certainly enjoy the sleeper car from Seattle to Oakland. The last time we traveled was early 2010 in a family room (2 beds with toilet). The added fare for it was $410. I just checked now to book again, and the added fair for the same room is $800. Bad. Next year will probably be $1200.

So some fares do go up a lot. I do understand their financial situation, but almost a 100% increase is discouraging.

 

[AlanB]

We certainly enjoy the sleeper car from Seattle to Oakland. The last time we traveled was early 2010 in a family room (2 beds with toilet). The added fare for it was $410. I just checked now to book again, and the added fair for the same room is $800. Bad. Next year will probably be $1200.

So some fares do go up a lot. I do understand their financial situation, but almost a 100% increase is discouraging.

Jay,

That's not a fare increase that you're bumping into, that's Amtrak's bucket system that you're bumping into.

Amtrak maintains 5 price levels for sleepers and has done so for years. These levels are called buckets. As the train sells out the prices rise from one bucket to the next. Also on dates where Amtrak expects to be able to easily sell rooms, like around holidays, Amtrak will place fewer rooms in the lower buckets meaning that unless you're lucky you'll see a higher bucket price.

Here is the range of fares back in the fall of 2010 for a trip from Seattle to Los Angeles, Oakland of course would be a bit cheaper, $479 - $1083. So as you can see, you got the low bucket price when you took your 2010 trip. Had things gone the other way and that train had been nearly sold out, you could easily have paid $800 or even $1,000 however for that same trip.

The $800 price that you're currently seeing is due to the fact that some of the cheaper, low bucket rooms have already sold out. It's not that Amtrak has doubled the price in just one year.

 

[had8ley]

Didn't Hadley post a while ago that some low bucket sleeper fares have been eliminated on some routes? Or am I imagining that?

Not only low bucket but some popular routes had only two high buckets available. I wasn't dreaming because we checked this out on an Amtrak computer for the entire summer and some of the fall, day by day.I was also told that there was a 6% fare increase sometime earlier this year. Doesn't sound like much but when you're going New York to Seattle and return in a sleeper it's a chunk of change !

 

[Maxthemooch]

As pointed out earlier in this post, reservations no longer seem to open up at the low bucket fare. Amtrak appears to be watching the sales of sleepers and makes adjustments on the fly. This revenue maximization plan will lead to higher fares. Perhaps that is the intent but every service has a price point before sales start to decline. This is where you reach a level where the fare is no longer worth buying.