BART strike: Unions give 72-hour notice of shutdown (8/8/13)

[Swadian Hardcore]

Then BART still has no excuse for $8.25 to the airport.

Actually, it does have one. Per Wikipedia:

Fares on BART are comparable to those of commuter rail systems and are higher than those of most
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transitsubways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit, especially for long trips. The fare is based on a formula that takes into account both the length and speed of the trip.
A surcharge is added for trips traveling through the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_TubeTransbay Tube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Tube, and/or through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_CaliforniaSan Mateo County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_California (which access to includes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_AirportSan Francisco International Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Airport), which is not a BART member.



[
Emphasis
added.]

That may be their excuse for themselves to feel good and gain support, but they are not a commuter rail system and shouldn't act like one. It dosen't even cost much more to ride the whole Caltrain.

 

[Eric S]

Except that BART really is sort of a hybrid of commuter rail and heavy rail rapid transit. (And, I wonder, would it have been beneficial had it been developed as a S-Bahn/RER-type system? I know, what if, shoulda coulda woulda, non-standard gauge for a reason, etc)

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Except that BART really is sort of a hybrid of commuter rail and heavy rail rapid transit. (And, I wonder, would it have been beneficial had it been developed as a S-Bahn/RER-type system? I know, what if, shoulda coulda woulda, non-standard gauge for a reason, etc)

You see, I might as well tell the whole story. Flying international is expensive. It's much cheaper when you go from a hub airport like SFO. But first I need to get to SFO. Since if I buy a Greyhound bus ticket to SFD in the city, it won't be much more than the BART fare to the airport alone, I find BART one of the worst deals I have seen in a long time. Then again, booking a flight together from where I live would be a terrible deal as well. So that's why I cannot bring myself to ride BART to the airport, despite the tough congestion that SamTrans buses have to deal with.

Edit: I should add that I have yet to actually fly straight out of SFO, but I'm just thinking about it.

 

[calwatch]

Take the KX route to San Francisco (while it still exists) or the 292 southward to Burlingame and catch Caltrain there.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Take the KX route to San Francisco (while it still exists) or the 292 southward to Burlingame and catch Caltrain there.

Then I might as well just ride the KX or 292 all the way to SFO. That way I don't need to pay two fares or transfer.

 

[user 1215]

apparently from an employee (who will remain nameless) that this is all one sided

I am a BART Train Operator for ATU 1555! We are in the middle of the negotiations of our lives right now! Management hired "union-busting" Tom Hocks to do us in! They are not playing fair, just negotiating in front of the media! We went on strike for 4 and a half days in July! Polls say the public supports management! We are asking for a decent contract with no concessions! We are labeled "Greedy Union Workers"! BARTD has plenty of surplus but says they need the money for the future! They want us to give up 10% of what we make now! The local politicians seem to be on managements' side! We are in "Blue-Collar" country in the San Francisco Bay Area! Where did the reasonable people go? Polls have people responding "Fire their ass like Reagan did"! Governor will ask for 60 Day Cooling Off period! Management does not negotiate! HELP!! If you are in this area, please call your district Board of Director! WE WILL FIGHT FOR THE WORKING CLASS!! In unity, my siblings!

also bart spent 300,000 to spend money on a negoator who has a bias and was caught breaking the law

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/barts-lead-negotiator-has-a-history-of-illegal-behavior/Content?oid=3647205

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/BART-union-s-demands-include-firing-negotiator-4660652.php

I might almost shed a tear. Or not.

I'm sick of the public getting risk free pensions. Pensions have just about ruined many companies, and when they go bust, the retirees lose their pensions. 401(k) is really the best way to go. Yes, there will be down times, but you can always mitigate risk with diversity.

So, $24/hr isn't much to live on in San Fran? What are the average wages of other industries in the area?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

apparently from an employee (who will remain nameless) that this is all one sided

I am a BART Train Operator for ATU 1555! We are in the middle of the negotiations of our lives right now! Management hired "union-busting" Tom Hocks to do us in! They are not playing fair, just negotiating in front of the media! We went on strike for 4 and a half days in July! Polls say the public supports management! We are asking for a decent contract with no concessions! We are labeled "Greedy Union Workers"! BARTD has plenty of surplus but says they need the money for the future! They want us to give up 10% of what we make now! The local politicians seem to be on managements' side! We are in "Blue-Collar" country in the San Francisco Bay Area! Where did the reasonable people go? Polls have people responding "Fire their ass like Reagan did"! Governor will ask for 60 Day Cooling Off period! Management does not negotiate! HELP!! If you are in this area, please call your district Board of Director! WE WILL FIGHT FOR THE WORKING CLASS!! In unity, my siblings!

also bart spent 300,000 to spend money on a negoator who has a bias and was caught breaking the law

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/barts-lead-negotiator-has-a-history-of-illegal-behavior/Content?oid=3647205

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/BART-union-s-demands-include-firing-negotiator-4660652.php

I might almost shed a tear. Or not.

I'm sick of the public getting risk free pensions. Pensions have just about ruined many companies, and when they go bust, the retirees lose their pensions. 401(k) is really the best way to go. Yes, there will be down times, but you can always mitigate risk with diversity.

So, $24/hr isn't much to live on in San Fran? What are the average wages of other industries in the area?

I bet this guy has a CDL, so he could just find a job driving a transit bus or driving Muni Metro. Maybe he could even drive a Greyhound bus or Walmart truck, those pay quite well.

Just a suggestion for those unhappy employees. Maybe it's a good way to eventually resolve this problem.

 

[NW cannonball]

apparently from an employee (who will remain nameless) that this is all one sided

I am a BART Train Operator for ATU 1555! We are in the middle of the negotiations of our lives right now! Management hired "union-busting" Tom Hocks to do us in! They are not playing fair, just negotiating in front of the media! We went on strike for 4 and a half days in July! Polls say the public supports management! We are asking for a decent contract with no concessions! We are labeled "Greedy Union Workers"! BARTD has plenty of surplus but says they need the money for the future! They want us to give up 10% of what we make now! The local politicians seem to be on managements' side! We are in "Blue-Collar" country in the San Francisco Bay Area! Where did the reasonable people go? Polls have people responding "Fire their ass like Reagan did"! Governor will ask for 60 Day Cooling Off period! Management does not negotiate! HELP!! If you are in this area, please call your district Board of Director! WE WILL FIGHT FOR THE WORKING CLASS!! In unity, my siblings!

also bart spent 300,000 to spend money on a negoator who has a bias and was caught breaking the law

http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/barts-lead-negotiator-has-a-history-of-illegal-behavior/Content?oid=3647205

http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/BART-union-s-demands-include-firing-negotiator-4660652.php

I might almost shed a tear. Or not.

I'm sick of the public getting risk free pensions. Pensions have just about ruined many companies, and when they go bust, the retirees lose their pensions. 401(k) is really the best way to go. Yes, there will be down times, but you can always mitigate risk with diversity.

So, $24/hr isn't much to live on in San Fran? What are the average wages of other industries in the area?

So -- ?? Many companies have been ruined by making promises they couldn't keep? Not - they just file bankruptcy and let the promises go. Ruined? Never trust a corporation -- maybe true. Harder for a government agency to renege on promises? Sure.

Risk free pensions -- never was -- but it worked for a long long time. At least for fixed-income pensions.

Now - the last 20 years or so -- all us workers have learned that corporate or government pension promises are as useless as a "lifetime guarantee" on a roofing job.

They all lied.

If you are sick of government making false pension promises -- where were you when the promises were made? The pension was part of employment contract back when.

Sorry you are sick of gov and corp keeping promises.

 

[sechs]

Then BART still has no excuse for $8.25 to the airport.

Actually, it does have one. Per Wikipedia:

Fares on BART are comparable to those of commuter rail systems and are higher than those of most
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transitsubways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit, especially for long trips. The fare is based on a formula that takes into account both the length and speed of the trip.
A surcharge is added for trips traveling through the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_TubeTransbay Tube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Tube, and/or through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_CaliforniaSan Mateo County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_California (which access to includes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_AirportSan Francisco International Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Airport), which is not a BART member.



[
Emphasis
added.]

That may be their excuse for themselves to feel good and gain support, but they are not a commuter rail system and shouldn't act like one. It dosen't even cost much more to ride the whole Caltrain.

San Mateo County doesn't dedicate any part of its sales tax to BART as the BART member counties do. So, SamTrans must pay into BART for the part of the system that runs in San Mateo county. Under agreement between BART and SamTrans, SamTrans decides the fare for the part of the line in San Mateo County.

SamTrans chooses to try to recover some of the money that it must pay BART from people traveling to SFO. It's considerably cheaper to go to Millbrae, one stop furthur along.

 

[sechs]

Take the KX route to San Francisco (while it still exists) or the 292 southward to Burlingame and catch Caltrain there.

Then I might as well just ride the KX or 292 all the way to SFO. That way I don't need to pay two fares or transfer.

Perhaps the question is, why don't you? I mean, other than you aren't supposed to take luggage to/from SFO on those buses.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Then BART still has no excuse for $8.25 to the airport.

Actually, it does have one. Per Wikipedia:

Fares on BART are comparable to those of commuter rail systems and are higher than those of most
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transitsubways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit, especially for long trips. The fare is based on a formula that takes into account both the length and speed of the trip.
A surcharge is added for trips traveling through the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_TubeTransbay Tube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Tube, and/or through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_CaliforniaSan Mateo County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_California (which access to includes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_AirportSan Francisco International Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Airport), which is not a BART member.



[
Emphasis
added.]

That may be their excuse for themselves to feel good and gain support, but they are not a commuter rail system and shouldn't act like one. It dosen't even cost much more to ride the whole Caltrain.

San Mateo County doesn't dedicate any part of its sales tax to BART as the BART member counties do. So, SamTrans must pay into BART for the part of the system that runs in San Mateo county. Under agreement between BART and SamTrans, SamTrans decides the fare for the part of the line in San Mateo County.

SamTrans chooses to try to recover some of the money that it must pay BART from people traveling to SFO. It's considerably cheaper to go to Millbrae, one stop furthur along.

Can you buy a ticket to Millbrae and get off at the Airport?

Take the KX route to San Francisco (while it still exists) or the 292 southward to Burlingame and catch Caltrain there.

Then I might as well just ride the KX or 292 all the way to SFO. That way I don't need to pay two fares or transfer.

Perhaps the question is, why don't you? I mean, other than you aren't supposed to take luggage to/from SFO on those buses.

You just answered your own question. How am I supposed to fly International with only a handbag?

 

[sechs]

Then BART still has no excuse for $8.25 to the airport.

Actually, it does have one. Per Wikipedia:

Fares on BART are comparable to those of commuter rail systems and are higher than those of most
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transitsubways
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_transit, especially for long trips. The fare is based on a formula that takes into account both the length and speed of the trip.
A surcharge is added for trips traveling through the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_TubeTransbay Tube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Tube, and/or through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_CaliforniaSan Mateo County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mateo_County,_California (which access to includes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_AirportSan Francisco International Airport
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_International_Airport), which is not a BART member.



[
Emphasis
added.]

That may be their excuse for themselves to feel good and gain support, but they are not a commuter rail system and shouldn't act like one. It dosen't even cost much more to ride the whole Caltrain.

San Mateo County doesn't dedicate any part of its sales tax to BART as the BART member counties do. So, SamTrans must pay into BART for the part of the system that runs in San Mateo county. Under agreement between BART and SamTrans, SamTrans decides the fare for the part of the line in San Mateo County.

SamTrans chooses to try to recover some of the money that it must pay BART from people traveling to SFO. It's considerably cheaper to go to Millbrae, one stop furthur along.

Can you buy a ticket to Millbrae and get off at the Airport?

I take it that you've never taken BART. You scan/tag your ticket as you enter and as you leave, so you cannot avoid the airport surcharge.

Still, it's cheaper than a cab.

 

[sechs]

How am I supposed to fly International with only a handbag?

Pack light.

 

[NW cannonball]

So, how is 8 bucks unreasonable? London centre - Heathrow at least 5 pounds -nearly equal . Narita - Tokyo minimum 1200 up to 2400 yen or more? ?huh?

 

[jis]

Then BART still has no excuse for $8.25 to the airport. I guess I'll have to contend with SF congestion while riding a SamTrans bus to the airport. I don't live in SF, so is there any other way to get there? International flight are expensive from here.

BART's $8.25 to the airport is quite in line with similar trips in similar big cities in the world.

You just answered your own question. How am I supposed to fly International with only a handbag?

???? I do it from time to time, depending on the duration of the trip! A 3-4 day trip, no problem. A two week trip, well that would need a little more baggage possibly.

 

[Blackwolf]

Swadian: BART is just plain convenient. You get on at a station somewhere else (all the way out in Pleasanton; way out in Pittsburgh; up in Richmond; over in Oakland; right in the center of San Francisco; etc...) and you are dropped off INSIDE SFO. Not out front. Not around the corner. Not at an adjacent transit center. But right there, INSIDE the International Terminal, which pretty much central to the whole darn place. You can literally step off your train, pass through the fare gates, and walk over to join the security lineup for the TSA in a minute flat if your flight happened to be leaving from G wing (see the following SFO Terminal Map.) I know this, because I've done it before.

$8 won't do much for you today in most major Metro areas. Heck, Amtrak charges more to take the Capitol Corridor from SAC to DAV, a trip of substantially less distance! So, no, it is not a hugely expensive system to ride. More than a few others around the country, sure, but based on BART being one of the most heavily ridden rail transit systems we have, obviously they are not pricing themselves out of existence by any margin.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, $8.25 is very much unreasonable for me, because it's only $10 to ride RNO-SFD on Greyhound! Only $10! And this Greyhound route is rarely late and has stations in the city centres, plus it runs 5 time Daily! Definately a cheap and comvenient option compared to the overpirced BART!

Sure, BART is convenient, I know that from other "Airport Lines" but international flights are inconvenient themselves because of the limited departures. I would thus have to arrive very early at the airport anyway to account for my checked baggage so that I won't be rushed to that sole daily flight. I can pack lighter on an international trip and lub it on the bus, but that comes back to my point that BART is serverly overpriced!

I can't pack too light either because my international trips are usually research trips that require lots of books and equipment. Add on my cloathes for these long trips and there you go, a drag freight's load of bags!

Things were so easy back in DEN, there was an United hub there so I could just book directly from DEN and transfer in SFO for Asia trips or ORD/IAD for Europe trips. As a hub, DEN fares are usually not extremly expensive. Airlines other than United flying there were charge low fares to undercut United's hub presence, giving me lots of flight options to choose from. Now I have to get to SFO first or overpay by up to $500!

 

[tp49]

BART and Greyhound aren't really comparable at all. The fare is reasonable for what it is though it may not be reasonable to you. Best option is if you don't like the price find another method to get there. Additionally I bet if Megabus wasn't running San Francisco to Reno that the Greyhound fare would be much higher than the $10 it is now.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

BART and Greyhound aren't really comparable at all. The fare is reasonable for what it is though it may not be reasonable to you. Best option is if you don't like the price find another method to get there. Additionally I bet if Megabus wasn't running San Francisco to Reno that the Greyhound fare would be much higher than the $10 it is now.

Using the same logic, SamTrans runs suburban buses there for $4 compared to $8.25. The problem is the congestion and lower luggage capacity. And the Greyhounds over here are always packed except for the worse departure time, Megabus isn't as popular.

I'm thinking that I could ride SamTrans anyway from experience that I've taken my "international load" on a transit bus before with no issues. The buses are usually half-empty during non-pek times.

 

[PRR 60]

SamTrans into San Francisco is $5, runs once an hour, and is subject to the traffic on 101. For an extra $3.25, BART runs every 20 minutes even in off hours, is not subject to traffic woes, and has multiple stops in downtown SF plus access to the East Bay. In my opinion, BART to and from SFO is well worth the cost.

After spending several hundred dollars to get to SFO, I don't think I'm taking a transit bus to downtown San Francisco to save $3.25. I'm just happy to have a good option to the $17 Airport Express or a $60 cab ride.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Let's just agree to disagree. The outcome of this argument would not affect either of our travel plans anyway.

 

[jis]

Yep. Everyone should take whatever they choose to take. Arguments happen only when they try to justify what appears to be their strange choice to everyone else. Just don't do so. Ride whatever the heck you like and no one will care either way. And as you said, outcome of such silly arguments seldom change the course of history.

 

[chakk]

Take the KX route to San Francisco (while it still exists) or the 292 southward to Burlingame and catch Caltrain there.

Passengers may not carry luggage on the KX route between San Francisco and the airport, but luggage between the City and the airport is permitted aboard the 292 bus route.

 

[sechs]

Things were so easy back in DEN, there was an United hub there so I could just book directly from DEN and transfer in SFO for Asia trips or ORD/IAD for Europe trips. As a hub, DEN fares are usually not extremly expensive. Airlines other than United flying there were charge low fares to undercut United's hub presence, giving me lots of flight options to choose from. Now I have to get to SFO first or overpay by up to $500!

SFO is a UA hub. That tends to drive up prices, particularly on direct flights.

Flights from DEN were probably cheaper because you had a connection. The fare had to compete with options from competitors.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Things were so easy back in DEN, there was an United hub there so I could just book directly from DEN and transfer in SFO for Asia trips or ORD/IAD for Europe trips. As a hub, DEN fares are usually not extremly expensive. Airlines other than United flying there were charge low fares to undercut United's hub presence, giving me lots of flight options to choose from. Now I have to get to SFO first or overpay by up to $500!

SFO is a UA hub. That tends to drive up prices, particularly on direct flights.

Flights from DEN were probably cheaper because you had a connection. The fare had to compete with options from competitors.

I know it's a UA hub, but flights from there are still cheaper than from DEN, and a lot cheaper than from BHM where I used to live before that. RNO flights are really expensive!