Bi-level Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement RFP discussion H2 2024 - 2025

[Mailliw]

I'm not opposed to a sleeping-lounge car as long as coach passengers have access to a cafe-lounge car, but it probably would onlt end up on the 2 night routes and Coast Starlight.

 

[Anderson]

They also have to deadhead Autotrain equipment to/from Beech Grove. I don't know how they do it, but if it involves sticking them on the Cardinal or even a Crescent (via NOL) both through Washington, forget it.

To be fair, they could avoid going through WAS if they were willing/able to do an equipment move from Lorton to Alexandria. However, that would involve messing up a bottleneck on CSX and Amtrak/VRE. The Cardinal probably has some tunnel clearance issues as well, however.

Looking the other way, you could run stuff around via the Virginia Avenue tunnel (which was re-done to be double-stack compatible) if you needed to skip the First Avenue tunnel.

 

[Johnny]

Does anyone know if it is true that only two bidders submitted their ideas? (which likely includes Alstom and Stadler)

 

[west point]

However, that would involve messing up a bottleneck on CSX and Amtrak/VRE. The Cardinal probably has some tunnel clearance issues as well, however.

Looking the other way, you could run stuff around via the Virginia Avenue tunnel

You have made dead heading SLs overly complicated. 1st street tunnel is SL compatible. Once the Auto train SLs get to Wash they can be either D/H on the cardinal to IND or now the Floridian to CHI and Cardinal back to IND. Have noticed if next Cardinal does not go for 2 or 3 days or they missed the Cardinal they went on Capitol and back on Cardinal. Got the SLs to IND sooner.

 

[Amtrak25]

You have made dead heading SLs overly complicated. 1st street tunnel is SL compatible. Once the Auto train SLs get to Wash they can be either D/H on the cardinal to IND or now the Floridian to CHI and Cardinal back to IND. Have noticed if next Cardinal does not go for 2 or 3 days or they missed the Cardinal they went on Capitol and back on Cardinal. Got the SLs to IND sooner.

We were responding to someone's proposal to produce a bi-level car even taller than a Superliner.

 

[JWM]

Does anyone know if it is true that only two bidders submitted their ideas? (which likely includes Alstom and Stadler)

After the problems with Siemens, I'd go with Stadler who has experience building Gold Leaf cars for the "Rocky Mountaineer".

 

[west point]

We were responding to someone's proposal to produce a bi-level car even taller than a Superliner.

OK I will buy that. 1st street tunnel clearances are rather undetermined. I read that at one time PRR had the 1st street tunnel wired for CAT but was removed when electric service to POT yard was ended. Now what was the top of rail to wire was not stated.

 

[Amtrak25]

After the problems with Siemens, I'd go with Stadler who has experience building Gold Leaf cars for the "Rocky Mountaineer".

Has Stadler built anything out of stainless steel ? Amtrak won't touch aluminum with a 10' pole.

 

[Johnny]

After the problems with Siemens, I'd go with Stadler who has experience building Gold Leaf cars for the "Rocky Mountaineer".

Interesting! Why not Alstom or Hitachi?

(Also, I wouldn't think Amtrak would only use Siemens for their bi-level coaches after ordering Venture equipment).

 

[GDRRiley]

Interesting! Why not Alstom or Hitachi?

(Also, I wouldn't think Amtrak would only use Siemens for their bi-level coaches after ordering Venture equipment).

Pretty sure Amtrak strongly dislikes Alstom right now. Hitachi hasn't built mainline rated cars for NA, Hyundai Rotem has but it seems unlikely they are interested.

I also think Stadler is the kind of manufacture Amtrak needs, they'll push back on dumb ideas while also working deeply with them.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Does anyone know if it is true that only two bidders submitted their ideas? (which likely includes Alstom and Stadler)

I was told that final bidders were confidential and thus likely won't be released before one is chosen.

 

[Tom C]

I was told that final bidders were confidential and thus likely won't be released before one is chosen.

Correct, I would not expect to see much if any comment until a bidder is selected.

 

[frequentflyer]

I don't think they should make cars any taller than Superliners. As it is, Superliners are too top heavy and flip over far to readily in derailments. I don't think a Santa Fe hi level car ever flipped over, or maybe just once.

Bi-level cars mean elevators. We know perfectly well what Amtrak "maintenance" is and they won't work reliably Get a universal single level fleet for nationwide use and flexibility. The whole system need not be compatible with Autotrain. Rebuild a sufficient number of Superliner-II's for that service to run another 20 years. Autotrain, as private and as Amtrak, also ran for 2 decades with single level cars.

I think management has deliberately made this whole thing too complicated and stringent (150 MPH trucks - really now) so as to slow walk the whole thing awaiting hostile executive (hello OMB) and legislative branches to kill the whole thing, and we may be just about there - goal achieved.

I wish I had the Train's article where I read it but Superliners have pretty low CG. I don't have the truck diagram, but a lot of the weight, such as AC and water tanks, is just above the trucks. Where the body connects to truck is down low, axle level. The amount of engineering in a Superliner design is pretty staggering. Pullman knew what they were doing.

By the way, many Amfleet end up on their sides, too, in a derailment, and I would not call them top-heavy.

The con to going taller ( I trust out of business Pullman, but I am not sure about today's builders, maybe Stadler) is clearance into Chicago. Some rail cars are taller than the Superliners, have higher CG and do not tip riding over the same rough track Amtrak does.

 

[Harmon Shay]

I still say it's time to scrap the Amtrak bi-level replacement program and link up with VIA, going single level, with an emphasis on simplicity. That's if it's not to late for any kind of program with the current administration in DC. I suspect you might have to have some sort of elevator, though, to get people into any domes. I'm not sure if that would be a requirement in Canada.

 

[psakrison]

After the problems with Siemens, I'd go with Stadler who has experience building Gold Leaf cars for the "Rocky Mountaineer".

Agreed, Stadler makes good equipment. It has worked well in the highlands of western Canada.

 

[GDRRiley]

I still say it's time to scrap the Amtrak bi-level replacement program and link up with VIA, going single level, with an emphasis on simplicity. That's if it's not to late for any kind of program with the current administration in DC. I suspect you might have to have some sort of elevator, though, to get people into any domes. I'm not sure if that would be a requirement in Canada.

There isn't a good way to make a dome with a 48in walk though floor without doing a full Ultra Dome which won't fit a lot of places it needs to.
Amtrak can still get costs and timeline under control if they'd actually follow any of the lessons from the IG reports.

 

[railiner]

The amount of engineering in a Superliner design is pretty staggering. Pullman knew what they were doing.

Yes…they purchased the basic engineering from The Budd Company’s Hi Level design.

 

[Trogdor]

After the problems with Siemens, I'd go with Stadler who has experience building Gold Leaf cars for the "Rocky Mountaineer".

Keep in mind that the Rocky Mountaineer equipment gets fairly light usage. Their trips involve hotels overnight while the train sits. Plus, with the amount passengers pay for these journeys ($3-5K per trip), Rocky Mountaineer definitely has a high incentive to make sure the equipment is in good order.

Let’s see how that same equipment would last running a 48 hour trip followed by a 7 hour turnaround before heading out on another 48 hour trip, carrying passengers that may be a bit more abusive towards the equipment while being maintained by a company that suffers from a shoestring budget every few years.