$Billion VIA Order to Siemens?

[Anderson]

I think I recall seeing mention of an option before at one point, but it was a very passing mention.  Whether it gets used or not is anybody's guess...though I could imagine that if the changes needed were minimal, there's room for them to be picked up by some of the states "stuck" with Brightliners instead of the MSBLs.

 

[jrud]

Another note is that the reports have been saying 4000 hp (SCV-40?) for the Via Chargers like Brightline’s Chargers (SCB-40). Not 4400 hp like the many SC-44s. Very few reports mention the option for 16 more trainsets, but a few do. https://www.ttnews.com/articles/bombardier-loses-siemens-canadas-1-billion-rail-deal.

 

[jrud]

And, I suspect that any requirement to combine trainsets easily makes the sloped Brightline nose a non-starter. The revised snowplow might not like a sloped nose either. Snow is not a big Florida concern.

Does anyone know if lightning requirements pushed for a revised nose design?

 

[jis]

And, I suspect that any requirement to combine trainsets easily makes the sloped Brightline nose a non-starter. The revised snowplow might not like a sloped nose either. Snow is not a big Florida concern.
 
Does anyone know if lightning requirements pushed for a revised nose design?

I wonder what shape of the slope has to do with coupling two trains together which is how you combine two fix consist trains if needed. VIA does want a sloped nose, just a different one from Brightline. There are plenty of very sloped noses running around with snowplows elsewhere. Moscow - St. Petersburg Sapsans (Broad Gauge Siemens Velaros) for example, runs through plenty of snow half the year.

 

[PerRock]

The Brightline nose covers the coupler... you can still coupler to the front, you just need to open/remove the nose. The VIA ones keep the coupler exposed.

Just looking at it in fact, I think the VIA nose is just a tweaked version of the European nose.

peter

 

[cpotisch]

The Brightline nose covers the coupler... you can still coupler to the front, you just need to open/remove the nose. The VIA ones keep the coupler exposed.

Just looking at it in fact, I think the VIA nose is just a tweaked version of the European nose.

peter

But that's not a Charger, right?

 

[bretton88]

But that's not a Charger, right?

Its the Vectron which is the same platform as the charger, just for the European market.

 

[jrud]

The Brightline nose covers the coupler... you can still coupler to the front, you just need to open/remove the nose. The VIA ones keep the coupler exposed. Just looking at it in fact, I think the VIA nose is just a tweaked version of the European nose.

  peter     

Having a cover over the coupler makes it difficult to combine trainsets at will. Canada may want that ability to create trains of multiple trainsets. This is common in Europe. Covered couplers are more for emergency retrieval. That is why I suggested the Brightline nose wouldn’t work well. 
Again my note about the sloped nose was specifically about the Brightline nose that had been suggested as an option. The snowplow ends up well back under the locomotive with the Brightline nose. That would appear to be a problem in a snowy climate.

Finally, as people noted, many Siemens locomotives across the world show a family resemblance. So do iPhones, BMWs, etc. as branding is considered very important. In spite of the fact that MARC Chargers look fine IRL to me, the Via Chargers may appeal to more people. I still wonder if they just designed a Siemens looking nose that accommodates all the lights.

TTFN

 

[jis]

Having a cover over the coupler makes it difficult to combine trainsets at will. Canada may want that ability to create trains of multiple trainsets. This is common in Europe. Covered couplers are more for emergency retrieval. That is why I suggested the Brightline nose wouldn’t work well. 

I think your conjecture is incorrect. Both in Japan and Europe, two consists of high speed trains with covered couplers are often operated joined together from a terminal station and then they separate en-route to go off to two different destinations. The cover over the couplers is just a clamshell that can be opened up or closed in minutes to make this possible. Same is true of the Birghtline noses. They are pretty close in structure to standard Siemens HST noses, which incidentally also ar operated in pairs elsewhere to be separated/joined en-route. Brightline already operates pairs of consists joined together on positioning moves occasionally between their West Palm Beach maintenance facility  and MiamiCentral and the separate them at MiamiCentral to run as two separate trains.

Ironically TGVs can be separted /joined in spite of their covered couplers, can be separated or joined in less time than it takes Amtrak to hook up and engine. Of course, the Scharfenberg (or equivalent) couplers and the fact that no high current HEP-like connections are involved, help a lot in that department.

It is only in the Acelas that they screwed up the end couplers making it impossible to operate them in pairs, and it was not the clamshell that was the problem.

 

[neroden]

That's not a horrible price.  It's about CAD31m/set (USD23m/set).  Basically, about USD3-3.2m/car plus the locomotives (I got a price of a shade over USD7m/locomotive from the March 2014 order).  Given that we were working with $2.5m/car as an estimate close to a decade ago, this isn't *horridly* off the mark, and I suspect that a similar Amtrak order would scale a little bit.

Yeah, 2.5M/car -> 3.M/car is roughly CPI inflation over the last 10 years.  Looks good.  Amtrak would probably get economies of scale from a larger order, yes.

 

[neroden]

So, an order for 32 trainsets, with an option for 16 additional trainsets.

Does anyone know how many trainsets  are *currently* running on "The Corridor"?  I suppose I could figure out by piecing together the *eleven* different timetables, but GROAN...

 

[Anderson]

For the sake of discussion, I am presuming that each round-trip requires one pair of equipment and then removing "redundant" round-trips (e.g. Ottawa-Montreal/Montreal-Quebec with an Ottawa-Quebec round-trip).  I'm also ignoring weekends and "just" going with Monday-Friday trains and sticking with adding up eastbound trains.  Here's what I have:
Montreal-Quebec:
-5x daily trains (#20, #22, #24, #26, #28)
--2x daily (#22 and #24) originate Fallowfield/Ottawa
--2x daily (#26 and #28) originate Ottawa

Ottawa-Montreal:
-6x daily trains (#22, #24, #34, #26, #28, #38)
--2x daily (#22 and #24) originate Fallowfield/Ottawa, terminate Quebec
--2x daily (#26 and #28) originate Ottawa, terminate Quebec
--2x daily (#34 and #38) originate Ottawa, terminate Montreal

Toronto-Ottawa:
-10x daily trains (#50, #52, #40, #42, #644, #44, #46, #646, #54, #48)
--None appear to run through to Montreal

Toronto-Montreal:
-6x daily trains (#60, #62, #64, #66, #68, #668, #650)
--None appear to run through to Montreal

Up here we thus seem to have 23 sets required.  On the other parts of the Corridor, Toronto-Sarnia requires two sets (85 turns as 88 in London, while 84 turns as 87 in Toronto).  Toronto-Windsor requires five sets (one turns in London).

So that's 30 sets (on what I suspect are unfavorable assumptions).  Two more sets would provide maintenance/bad order coverage...so this is probably a break-even proposition.  It might represent a small gain (I'm having to make certain assumptions) or a small loss (depending on seat capacity...I've seen a few trains with six or seven cars on occasion).

 

[jrud]

I think your conjecture is incorrect. Both in Japan and Europe, two consists of high speed trains with covered couplers are often operated joined together from a terminal station and then they separate en-route to go off to two different destinations. The cover over the couplers is just a clamshell that can be opened up or closed in minutes to make this possible. Same is true of the Birghtline noses. They are pretty close in structure to standard Siemens HST noses, which incidentally also ar operated in pairs elsewhere to be separated/joined en-route. Brightline already operates pairs of consists joined together on positioning moves occasionally between their West Palm Beach maintenance facility  and MiamiCentral and the separate them at MiamiCentral to run as two separate trains. Ironically TGVs can be separted /joined in spite of their covered couplers, can be separated or joined in less time than it takes Amtrak to hook up and engine. [emoji3] Of course, the Scharfenberg (or equivalent) couplers and the fact that no high current HEP-like connections are involved, help a lot in that department. It is only in the Acelas that they screwed up the end couplers making it impossible to operate them in pairs, and it was not the clamshell that was the problem.  

FWIW. At 9:15 they are installing a nose.

 

[PerRock]

It's installed as one, but you can clearly see in that video the seam that runs down the middle where the clamshell splits.

peter

 

[jrud]

https://cmgpbpmalled.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/green-and-orange.jpg

 

[jis]

Sorry for causing so much angst about such a simple subject. What I should have simply posted is one of these videos I guess. :unsure:



If there is a need to frequently couple and uncoule trains long snouts of noses are not an issue. It is just that one has to design it to meet the requirements. That is what I meant to say when I said sloped noses which cover couplers, are in general not a problem for coupling and uncoupling trains quickly.

In early model TGVs you had to remove the clamshells into their holster by hand. The newer units have the mechanism built in so that one does not have to go down to the track to do it. One has to just press a button.

Also notice the beauty of the consolidated couplers that couple together everything at a single shot. No additional hoses and Comm and Control cables to connect. That is what my comment about HEP was. Thos high voltage wires have to be connected separately if needed. But since each train is a self contained unit, there is no need for that, indeed it would be more or less unworkable without jumping through hoops for phase synch and what not.

 

[jrud]

Sorry for causing so much angst about such a simple subject. What I should have simply posted is one of these videos I guess.

If there is a need to frequently couple and uncoule trains long snouts of noses are not an issue. It is just that one has to design it to meet the requirements. That is what I meant to say when I said sloped noses which cover couplers, are in general not a problem for coupling and uncoupling trains quickly.
In early model TGVs you had to remove the clamshells into their holster by hand. The newer units have the mechanism built in so that one does not have to go down to the track to do it. One has to just press a button.

It just seems like Brightline didn’t do this. Not that Via couldn’t do it. I’m looking at pictures that seem to indicate that the Brightline nose hangs on a pole across the top of the opening. And doesn’t seem to retract. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4701505 I’m just trying to figure out why Via went with a new design. And as you said, Europe does have quick coupling. TTFN

 

[jis]

I actually don't think Brightline at the present time really intends to run consists in pairs. They are going for 10 car consists eventually. There may come a time when they decide to get a collection of 5 cars consists for local service or some such, and at that point it is not that hard to do some retrofitting on new more agile (shall we say) nose pieces. This sort of thing will start meking sense if they ever get into the Cocoa - JAX segment. It might then make sense to run a combined train from Miami or Orlando to Cocoa, where a small section separate to head off to JAX. But until then there is no apparent use for such a thing.

Frankly the speeds targeted for Brightline or VIA do not require fancy noses. It is mostly an aesthetic and sexiness factor thing.

 

[cpotisch]

2 hours ago, jis said:

Sorry for causing so much angst about such a simple subject. What I should have simply posted is one of these videos I guess. :unsure:

Oh wow, I didn’t realize the nose can just automatically rotate and retract out of the way. I thought it had to be removed altogether. Is it correct that that coupler design itself is very different from what we have in America? Because that is both quite a cool look, and quite satisfying to watch.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

As of November 18 (current timetable) VIA has 27 consists in service in the Corridor: LRC-19, HEP-6 and Ren-2.

Some consists are combined then split. For example: #60-#50 and #62-#52 are J-Trains (loco-cars + loco-cars) from Toronto to CN Perth (west of Brockville) where they split and run separately to Montreal and Ottawa….....and #41-#22 are P-Trains (loco-cars + cars-loco coupled back to back) as far as Fellowfield (Ottawa) where they separate.

There’s also a couple of other combined trains depending on the day of the week.

 

 

[jis]

Oh wow, I didn’t realize the nose can just automatically rotate and retract out of the way. I thought it had to be removed altogether. Is it correct that that coupler design itself is very different from what we have in America? Because that is both quite a cool look, and quite satisfying to watch.

That is a Scharfenberg Coupler, which is now pretty standard equipment on many passenger trains in Europe. It simultaneously make connection of all control and communication cables and brake pipes, in addition to mechanically coupling the two trains together. Here is a video illustrating how it works:

 

[cpotisch]

Are there any disadvantages of that compared to the kind we use here? Or is it just another example of Europe having better and more efficient trains? :unsure:  

 

[frequentflyer]

3 hours ago, jis said:

That is a Scharfenberg Coupler, which is now pretty standard equipment on many passenger trains in Europe. It simultaneously make connection of all control and communication cables and brake pipes, in addition to mechanically coupling the two trains together. Here is a video illustrating how it works:

Looking at the video how are the brake and control connections made? Thanks for the video, its seems "simple".

 

[jis]

The video I think shows the mechanical coupling core of the coupler together with the air connection. When other connectors are involved, there is an additional module on top of the couple with everything in it or sometimes a second connector is built into the coupler below the main coupling mechanism. I think the brake pipe is part of the mechanical coupling, the shiny round thing below the main coupler mechanism, but don't quote me on that.

The beauty of the coupler is that it can be entirely controlled remotely. Even the release can be actuated from the cab, even though the red thing would release the coupler too.

 

[frequentflyer]

With the coupler protruding out, I do not see what is the issue with the slant nose or plow. I believe this is the better face of the three Chargers so far. Hopefully Amtrak goes for this same exterior but I doubt it, most likely will go with the "pug" face that's on the state owned models.