Boston-Montréal overnight

[fdaley]

Those are the only two options I can think of. One iteration of the Niagara Rainbow was a Toronto slumbercoach and coach attached to the LSL, so there is precedent for same-train service to Boston with a change of cars.

I remember Amtrak and VIA had a joint overnight run between NYP and Toronto for a year or two around 1994 that was called the Niagara Rainbow, but it didn't run as part of the Lake Shore. It ran weekends only, initially Friday and Saturday nights westbound and Saturday and Sunday nights eastbound, and later only Friday west and Sunday night east. It had a late night departure from NYP, about 10:30 p.m., and an eastbound arrival about 7 a.m. I believe it actually had a standard 10-6 heritage sleeper, but the rooms were available at the slumbercoach rate as an incentive to get people to try it. Alas, it ended before I had a chance to ride it.

The schedule seemed like it could have been handy for weekend travelers from New York to Rochester and Buffalo, as well as Toronto, and with that schedule one could easily have a Boston section that would have decent arrival and departure times there. And a Boston-Toronto routing through Albany would be much more direct than going all around through Portland, Sherbrooke and Montreal. But you'd still have to figure out the border-crossing issues. If the cost of a sleeper room is comparable to Amtrak's contemporary fares, I don't think the people who'd ride it would take kindly to having to pile off the train at 7 a.m. with all their luggage for an hour-long customs inspection at NFS.

 

[Tlcooper44]

The other factor here is the route, meaning Boston to Montreal. A Boston to Toronto overnight service would be far more popular. The excellent regional airline, Porter, operates multiple round trips between Logan and Billy Bishop (Toronto City Airport), daily. Their volume is back to 2019 levels since Canada lifted it's COVID restrictions. In fact I am typing this from Toronto where we treated ourselves to a post Christmas, pre New Years getaway. The flight was full, and ran on time, and had plenty of their regular travelers who make the trip throughout the year.

Toronto is a far more dynamic City than Montreal, it overtook Montreal as Canadas economic capital a long time ago, and is morphing into the Hong Kong of North America.
Not to mention Toronto has a Baseball Team (a great place to watch the Red Sox), and no language issues.

Ken

Having been to both, I find Montreal a more appealing destination than Toronto. Of course, T is much bigger, but that doesn’t mean everything to everyone.
My wife was born in Hong Kong but lived for 10 years in Toronto. She says HK and Toronto cannot be compared.
Montreal has plenty of attractions that matter to people and qualify as a destination (beyond a baseball team). Arts institutions, and schools among others.

Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.

 

[jis]

Here is an interesting article with substantial comments in reaction from back in 2009.

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/03/connecting-montreal-to-the-american-rail-network/
Really nothing substantial has changed in the basic parameters of the discussion.

 

[Septa9739]

I’m rather fond of the idea of overnight running Boston to Montréal via Albany, as a section of New York to Montréal service. It would take a roughly viable 13 hours today (maybe 11:15 after East-West Rail and Montréal customs improvements) and would run a schedule that would be favorable for East-West Rail. It apparently would be more politically viable in Montréal, but I think the real benefit is being able to piggyback on the strength of the New York market.

 

[Anderson]

I don't see why not. The Budd cars have operated in the US before -- on the Atlantic until it was discontinued, and also on the Adirondack for a brief time about a decade ago after Hurricane Sandy.

The main constraints on those cars would be the windows (VIA still has glass, vs the FRA Lexan, but those can be replaced if needed) and the different under-train toilet tanks.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Here is an interesting article with substantial comments in reaction from back in 2009.

https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/08/03/connecting-montreal-to-the-american-rail-network/
Really nothing substantial has changed in the basic parameters of the discussion.

Alon Levy, as usual, makes some persuasive arguments in the comments. Though he does kind of steamroll everyone, which doesn't bode well for his own advocacy.

It makes sense for a night train to serve NYC just based on numbers alone (it also makes sense for NYC-Toronto to have a Night Train). Which is why, as I've mentioned before, I am a proponent of a multi-destination train, splitting at Springfield or Albany, and going to both cities.

The upside is you get a train to Boston more easily. The downside is NH and Maine are not served. I have no idea what the potential ridership was there in the first place though.

 

[Bonser]

Having been to both, I find Montreal a more appealing destination than Toronto. Of course, T is much bigger, but that doesn’t mean everything to everyone.
My wife was born in Hong Kong but lived for 10 years in Toronto. She says HK and Toronto cannot be compared.
Montreal has plenty of attractions that matter to people and qualify as a destination (beyond a baseball team). Arts institutions, and schools among others.

Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.

I'm a Montreal guy too. Great city, great people.

 

[jis]

The main constraints on those cars would be the windows (VIA still has glass, vs the FRA Lexan, but those can be replaced if needed) and the different under-train toilet tanks.

Right. As we saw before, without modification they cannot be operated on any of the MTA third rail equipped tracks around New York City.

Also there are some HEP related limitations on what position they can operate in a train of mixed consist, relative to the Amtrak standard HEP source and Amtrak standard HEP cars. They cannot be placed between Amtrak HEP cars and Amtrak HEP source locomotives. They can be at the tail of a train with nothing further behind them IIRC from when they operated on the Adirondack.

 

[fdaley]

The upside is you get a train to Boston more easily. The downside is NH and Maine are not served. I have no idea what the potential ridership was there in the first place though.

I do think a Boston-Montreal train serving Island Pond VT, Berlin/Gorham NH and Bethel ME would attract ridership at those towns that would be out of proportion to their population. All three are in/near summer resort and/or ski areas and are a long drive from the major population centers of the Northeast. They also have serious winter weather. So a train, even one that called in the wee hours, could be a real transportation option.

Still, from endpoint population alone, NYC-Toronto is clearly a much bigger market for an overnight service than Boston-Montreal. And a NYC-Toronto train could have a Boston leg on a direct route (BOS-ALB), whereas a Montreal overnight could not easily serve both U.S. markets without having a really circuitous routing for one of them.

Given trackage available, Toronto is not a feasible overnight destination train-wise. It would be far too long a journey, and would fall into the LD (though not strictly by definition) train category rather than something comparable to the Night Owl.

Based on the current LSL and Maple Leaf schedules, it looks like a train could leave Boston about 6 p.m. and arrive in Toronto by 9 a.m., including the Maple Leaf's current long border stop and its schedule padding from Buffalo to NFS. I don't think a Boston-Portland-Sherbrooke-Montreal run would be much shorter than that from end to end, maybe an hour or two difference at most.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'm a Montreal guy too. Great city, great people.

All Canadian Cities are interesting, my favorite is still Ottawa!

 

[MARC Rider]

I do think a Boston-Montreal train serving Island Pond VT, Berlin/Gorham NH and Bethel ME would attract ridership at those towns that would be out of proportion to their population. All three are in/near summer resort and/or ski areas and are a long drive from the major population centers of the Northeast. They also have serious winter weather. So a train, even one that called in the wee hours, could be a real transportation option.

Not so sure. I vacation in Maine sort of close to the proposed route. (In fact, I drive past and along part of the proposed route during the drive up.) The thing about tourism up in that part of the country is that once you get to your destination, you will absolutely need a car to get around. If people are going to take the train, they're going to need a convenient car rental when they arrive. Having been through Island Pond Vermont, or Berlin, NH, I just don't see there bing the market for a car rental agency that will be open in the wee hours when this train will be passing through. In fact, when I take the train to a Maine vacation, I don't even bother with transferring to the Downeaster, I just rent my car in Boston, or White River Junction (which requires an overnight hotel stay before one can pick up the car.)

Seems to me an overnight train from Montreal to New York makes more sense, with maybe a section that gets split at Albany to serve Boston. At least the infrastructure for passenger trains is all in place right now.

The other viable overnight train from Canda would be a New York to Toronto. In I have a 1969 timetable from Penn Central that shows such a service, operated in conjunction with the TH&B and CP. They also ran 2 daily trains between New York and Montreal in conjunction with the D&H, one was a day train, similar to the Adirondack, the other was an overnight train. Presumably, these trains ran until Amtrak Day.

 

[Mailliw]

I think any night train would require preclearance in Montreal (or Toronto) and then run sealed to the US border.

 

[Willbridge]

I think any night train would require preclearance in Montreal (or Toronto) and then run sealed to the US border.

Sealed from TO brings back the issue of the substantial intermediate points. Some of the Montreal routes with short Canadian segments could work as sealed trains.

Of course, I may be biased because of seeing this guy in Gare Central every morning years ago. The aroma of baking bread... In contrast, I remember overhearing a trainer for a franchise muffin chain telling a newbie how tough the morning rush hour was in Toronto Union Station. Those memories from my time in Middle Canada as a visitor seem to characterize the two cities.

Montreal:


Toronto:


If I was still booking tours, I'd send them to Montreal and Quebec City.

 

[fdaley]

Not so sure. I vacation in Maine sort of close to the proposed route. (In fact, I drive past and along part of the proposed route during the drive up.) The thing about tourism up in that part of the country is that once you get to your destination, you will absolutely need a car to get around. If people are going to take the train, they're going to need a convenient car rental when they arrive. Having been through Island Pond Vermont, or Berlin, NH, I just don't see there bing the market for a car rental agency that will be open in the wee hours when this train will be passing through. In fact, when I take the train to a Maine vacation, I don't even bother with transferring to the Downeaster, I just rent my car in Boston, or White River Junction (which requires an overnight hotel stay before one can pick up the car.)

Seems to me an overnight train from Montreal to New York makes more sense, with maybe a section that gets split at Albany to serve Boston. At least the infrastructure for passenger trains is all in place right now.

The other viable overnight train from Canda would be a New York to Toronto. In I have a 1969 timetable from Penn Central that shows such a service, operated in conjunction with the TH&B and CP. They also ran 2 daily trains between New York and Montreal in conjunction with the D&H, one was a day train, similar to the Adirondack, the other was an overnight train. Presumably, these trains ran until Amtrak Day.

Well, I think you're right that the train would have limited utility for tourists who have no other connection to that area. But there are a lot of people with second homes (my family included) and ski places up there who might keep a car at that end and use the train to get back and forth to their urban base. And there are retired/semi-retired folks who go to their North Woods camp from May to October whose adult children, friends, nieces/nephews etc. might use the train to visit for a long weekend or a week. The long drive in and out is the biggest downside for those who visit that region more than occasionally.

But definitely agree that Toronto-NYC and Montreal-NYC seem like most obvious choices for overnight service if the customs issues can be worked out to minimize the hassle and delay for those on board.

That D&H overnight run to Montreal did indeed run until Amtrak Day, but I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.

I have a vague memory that it was an RDC connection run by the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. Unfortunately traveling now but if I was home I could check my timetable collection, I recall having a timetable for that run.

 

[jiml]

That D&H overnight run to Montreal did run indeed until Amtrak Day, but I believe the Toronto train was converted to a daylight operation, with transfer in Buffalo, sometime before that.

I have a vague memory that it was an RDC connection run by the Toronto Hamilton and Buffalo. Unfortunately traveling now but if I was home I could check my timetable collection, I recall having a timetable for that run.

Still running in '76:

 

[Willbridge]

Still running in '76:

View attachment 30915

In checking the Guide, it looks as though the overnight service, which included a 10-6 sleeper, was replaced by the Dayliner in or about November 1970. In the same era, CN was running Railiners three times daily between Toronto and a dead end at Niagara Falls, Ontario. I'm not sure when the CN's US partners gave up.

 

[fdaley]

In checking the Guide, it looks as though the overnight service, which included a 10-6 sleeper, was replaced by the Dayliner in or about November 1970. In the same era, CN was running Railiners three times daily between Toronto and a dead end at Niagara Falls, Ontario. I'm not sure when the CN's US partners gave up.

I think CN's partner was the Lehigh Valley, so that would have ended about 10 years earlier. There was an overnight LV run called the Maple Leaf that I believe was its last through train.

 

[Maverickstation]

Of course, I may be biased because of seeing this guy in Gare Central every morning years ago. The aroma of baking bread... In contrast, I remember overhearing a trainer for a franchise muffin chain telling a newbie how tough the morning rush hour was in Toronto Union Station. Those memories from my time in Middle Canada as a visitor seem to characterize the two cities.

OMG, what an ancient picture of Toronto, please !!! If you have not been there in the past 5 years or so, you don't know that city at all. It is far more dynamic, and far less white than that picture. Further the xenophobic government of Quebec has chased away the new arrivals from mid-east, and Asia, who have settled largely in Vancouver, Toronto, and the GTA (Greater Toronto Area). Further if you are looking for a great French Bistro, it is not in Montreal, it is in Toronto, Le Select.

Getting back to my initial comment, my point being today, not yesterday, the travel market between Boston and Toronto, is far larger than Boston and Montreal.

Cheers (No translation required)

Ken

 

[jis]

Getting back to my initial comment, my point being today, not yesterday, the travel market between Boston and Toronto, is far larger than Boston and Montreal.

The number of daily non stop flights suggests that your statement about relative demand above is quite correct.

As I mentioned earlier, while Montreal has its nice features that many here rightfully like, Toronto is still the business center of Canada and that has a lot to do with how much demand for travel is there to a city.

 

[Tlcooper44]

The number of daily non stop flights suggests that your statement about relative demand above is quite correct.

As I mentioned earlier, while Montreal has its nice features that many here rightfully like, Toronto is still the business center of Canada and that has a lot to do with how much demand for travel is there to a city.

It would certainly be far more useful to me given my family in-laws there.

Porter air to billy bishop is a real convenient and enjoyable service, and you skip the hassle at Pierson.

Boston-Toronto would be a 15-16 hour train, which to me is just on the cusp of being a useful overnight train (right timetable to serve business hours & needs). If it could be brought down to 12-14 hours, then that’s viable.

 

[fdaley]

Boston-Toronto would be a 15-16 hour train, which to me is just on the cusp of being a useful overnight train (right timetable to serve business hours & needs). If it could be brought down to 12-14 hours, then that’s viable.

With current schedules it seems like the running time could be about 12.5 hours (5 BOS-ALB, 5.5 ALB-NFL, 2 NFL-TWO), so it's really a question of how much extra is required for customs and how much padding is added to help ensure on-time performance.