Boston - Montreal new rail alignment

[jacoblaw]

Boston and Montreal seem like 2 significant cities that should have some direct Amtrak service but don't.

The route is complete, except for a section of track between Lebanon NH and just south of Concord NH, which is now a rail trail. Is there a good alignment for building track to connect these two cities? Transitioning the rail trail back into track just doesn't seem very feasible. Is the interstate median the best option for track?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Why do people seem to think a rail trail can’t be converted back to railroad?

It use to be called rail banking.

It’s very feasible, it may not feasible politically, but it’s quite easy physically.

 

[Literalman]

I think I read that Massachusetts was interested in sponsoring a Boston-Springfield connection if the Vermonter ever becomes the Montrealer again. This would require little or no capital investment, I think (except trains), and the overnight schedule should be marketable even though the route is longer than the old one through Concord, NH.

 

[jacoblaw]

Why do people seem to think a rail trail can’t be converted back to railroad?

It use to be called rail banking.

It’s very feasible, it may not feasible politically, but it’s quite easy physically.

I agree it is physically possible. I just don't think it is politically feasible.

 

[user 14106]

The most likely rail improvement that's coming anytime soon in Massachusetts that could bridge this gap is expanded service between Springfield and Boston via inland route service and perhaps Albany service. This could offer the possibility of a connection to the Vermonter for which extension to Montreal is being targeted. This is probably the only near term realistic possibility of Boston - Montreal.

 

[BlackDiamond]

The most likely rail improvement that's coming anytime soon in Massachusetts that could bridge this gap is expanded service between Springfield and Boston via inland route service and perhaps Albany service. This could offer the possibility of a connection to the Vermonter for which extension to Montreal is being targeted. This is probably the only near term realistic possibility of Boston - Montreal.

Agreed, that is the most practical scenario rather than battling the NIMBYs and politically powerful rail to trail folks to put back track that would only be used for one train each way a day.

One issue with extending the Vermonter would be that altering the schedule for a convenient arrival/departure in Montreal similar to the old Montrealer schedule would make for less than ideal times in Vermont, probably very early in the morning Northbound and late in the evening Southbound, which would be an issue for Vermont as they subsidize the train. Perhaps they should keep the existing Vermonter and add the Montrealer as a separate train.

 

[user 14106]

I would anticipate an extension of the Vermonter as is to Montreal to be step 1 acknowledging of course the late arrival and early departures that would be involved. With a future rehabilitation of the rail line between Burlington station and Essex Junction one could consider also extending the Ethan Allen Express as a second train. This could involve shifting the Ethan Allen's schedule later for the southbound and a bit earlier for the north to provide better departure and arrival times for Montreal. A bigger difference between the Vermonter's departure time out of Essex Jct. and the Ethan Allen's out of Burlington could have a secondary benefit of boosting ridership for both stations to New York if they offered two different Burlington departure and New York arrival times. As great as both trains are doing a bit of a schedule difference between the two could boost help boost Ethan Allen Burlington - NEC ridership.

 

[west point]

A possible alternative would be a BOS <> ALB <> & west train to connect with Adirondack at Albany. Now that would make BOS times not great but ????.

 

[BlackDiamond]

A possible alternative would be a BOS <> ALB <> & west train to connect with Adirondack at Albany. Now that would make BOS times not great but ????.

Going by the current Lake Shore Limited schedule, to arrive at Albany by say 10:30 AM you would have to leave Boston around 5 to 5:30 AM.

Of course Adirondack is a day train so you would miss the advantage of an overnight on the train giving you a full day more or less in Montreal.

 

[west point]

Going by the current Lake Shore Limited schedule, to arrive at Albany by say 10:30 AM you would have to leave Boston around 5 to 5:30 AM.

Of course Adirondack is a day train so you would miss the advantage of an overnight on the train giving you a full day more or less in Montreal.

Is there any indication of Vermont wanting to flip the Vermonter's schedule to night time?

Just realized Vermonter cannot be flipped until all the intermitted nighttime closures of the Hell Gate line are complete.

 

[jis]

I think I read that Massachusetts was interested in sponsoring a Boston-Springfield connection if the Vermonter ever becomes the Montrealer again. This would require little or no capital investment, I think (except trains), and the overnight schedule should be marketable even though the route is longer than the old one through Concord, NH.

One issue with extending the Vermonter would be that altering the schedule for a convenient arrival/departure in Montreal similar to the old Montrealer schedule would make for less than ideal times in Vermont, probably very early in the morning Northbound and late in the evening Southbound, which would be an issue for Vermont as they subsidize the train. Perhaps they should keep the existing Vermonter and add the Montrealer as a separate train.

Is there any indication of Vermont wanting to flip the Vermonter's schedule to night time?

There are no plans to flip the schedule of the Vermonter, to make the schedule look like that of the old Montrealer. Why would Vermont pay for a train that is most inconvenient for the use of Vermont residents?

What will be done is departure from Washington will be moved about three hours earlier with a late evening arrival in Montreal, and similarly arrival into Washington will be moved to a few hours later with an early morning departure from Montreal, so that times in Vermont are pretty much preserved close to what they are today.

If an overnight train ever happens that will be in addition to the daytime Vermonter between Montreal and Washington DC, and will probably be at least partially funded by someone other than Vermont.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Is there really that much call or market for service between Montreal and Boston?

 

[Tlcooper44]

Is there really that much call or market for service between Montreal and Boston?

I think like all things rail in this country, we shouldn't judge the usefulness of a planned bridge by how many swimmers there are.

Boston and Montreal are two cities with extensive transit and walkability (at least by North American standards), so intercity rail makes sense given that last mile solutions will be easy.

From personal-professional experience, Boston and Montreal have a lot of travel between the two.
I know I sure as hell would prefer a train to the current bus experience.

 

[Maverickstation]

Is there really that much call or market for service between Montreal and Boston?

That is the million dollar question.

There is a tremendous market between Boston and Toronto, and thanks to Porter Airlines, we take a number of long weekends there through the year, and the
planes are packed (landing at Billy Bishop Airport also ups the convenience factor. Frankly, we never give Montreal a thought, and on a recent trip that involved 1 night in Montreal it confirmed why we love Toronto.

Boston needs more, direct, inter city train options, I question the feasibility of this proposed route.

Ken

 

[Tlcooper44]

That is the million dollar question.

There is a tremendous market between Boston and Toronto, and thanks to Porter Airlines, we take a number of long weekends there through the year, and the
planes are packed (landing at Billy Bishop Airport also ups the convenience factor. Frankly, we never give Montreal a thought, and on a recent trip that involved 1 night in Montreal it confirmed why we love Toronto.

Boston needs more, direct, inter city train options, I question the feasibility of this proposed route.

Ken

Not sure I agree with the premise that because you use Porter air a lot, and didn’t like Montreal, it must mean that there is no market between Boston and Montreal - if I understand you correctly.

 

[Maverickstation]

Not sure I agree with the premise that because you use Porter air a lot, and didn’t like Montreal, it must mean that there is no market between Boston and Montreal - if I understand you correctly.

OMG, what a comment, of course there is a Boston to Montreal market, the question being is it a large enough market to sustain what would be a major infrastructure project.

Ken

 

[MARC Rider]

From personal-professional experience, Boston and Montreal have a lot of travel between the two.
I know I sure as hell would prefer a train to the current bus experience.

How about if somebody like Vonlane ran deuxe buses on the route?

 

[jiml]

How about if somebody like Vonlane ran deuxe buses on the route?

Interesting idea. I wonder what route would be better? I-93/91 could capture significant markets on the Canadian side and likely be faster, however the more circuitous route ending up on I-89 would be more scenic and better serve Vermont. The connection on the Canadian side is a secondary highway for that one though, so winter weather might be more of a factor than the multi-lane first option.

 

[Tlcooper44]

How about if somebody like Vonlane ran deuxe buses on the route?

I would absolutely love a deluxe night bus! I would regularly take it - and encourage others to do so.

Sleeper buses should be much more of a thing in the US, but any form of public transport is so spotty here.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

My point is somewhat roundabout, but, if we are spending taxpayer monies (as opposed to a private development - that would hopefully be at their risk), should it be spent on an international connection or on improved national connections, i.e. Maine, Albany, western Mass, etc, before an international connection.

 

[Steve4031]

IMHO it would make the most sense to use tracks where Amtrak is already operating trains. Thus, Boston to Springfield to Montreal. Improvements would need to be made to increase train speeds once crossing the boarder in Canada. I don't think the Vermonter route could be improved that much. But once you get additional frequencies on a route, research shows that more people will ride.

 

[fdaley]

My point is somewhat roundabout, but, if we are spending taxpayer monies (as opposed to a private development - that would hopefully be at their risk), should it be spent on an international connection or on improved national connections, i.e. Maine, Albany, western Mass, etc, before an international connection.

Well, based on endpoint population, I'm sure Boston-Montreal is a bigger market than, say, Boston-Bangor. But any potential train route crossing the border faces the added challenge of dealing with both countries' border agencies, who seem to view train inspections as extra work and hassle. And their inspections of the trains will necessarily involve long delays at the border, because we all know that train passengers are much more suspicious than people who drive across in their own cars. Plus there is the fact that the federal government in Canada has about zero interest in rail service beyond the Quebec-Windsor corridor. So even though there might in theory be many more people who'd ride a Boston-Montreal train than a Boston-Bangor or Boston-Albany run, the latter two would also be used and seem politically much less difficult to get rolling.

 

[west point]

"IF" the problem of getting to use CP from US border to Montreal can be solved. Get connections to the CN route to Montreal station from CP. Then service on both Adirondack and Vermonter would have a much greater ridership.

Just do not know how to get the Canadian government interested.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

IIRC there are a lot of Quebeckers in New England, lots of people with family on both sides of the border, and Montreal and Boston are traditional hockey rivals. Getting them to ride the train is a different deal.

 

[BlackDiamond]

IIRC there are a lot of Quebeckers in New England, lots of people with family on both sides of the border, and Montreal and Boston are traditional hockey rivals. Getting them to ride the train is a different deal.

A lot of people from Quebec visit Maine, particularly Old Orchard Beach. I have heard suggestions of restoring service Montreal - Portland - Boston. This would require reactivating the former Maine Central Mountain Division of which only a small portion is still in service between Portland and Westbrook, including the current Portland Transportation Center. Probably a pipe dream at this point.