Boston-Montréal overnight

[Fenway]

14 hours?????

As much as I would love to see train service restored between Montreal and Boston I can't see this leaving the station.

the train would run between Montreal’s Central Station and Sherbrooke several times a day, with one evening departure continuing to Boston’s North Station.

Under the plan, U.S. stops would include Island Pond, Vt.; Berlin and Gorham in New Hampshire; and Bethel, Auburn, Portland and Old Orchard Beach in Maine, before reaching Boston.

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...bURVB1RQKnTjJMlAAELgOrKHYk#Echobox=1661466184

 

[Tlcooper44]

One of my fantasy dream trains for quite some time. I’d love to ride a sunset train up towards Portland and see Montreal the next morning.

Doubt this will ever happen without a major cultural shift among many things.

 

[zephyr17]

I'm not betting on that.

 

[jiml]

The Montreal - Sherbrooke route has been a target for restored train service since the discontinuation of VIA's Atlantic, so that part may find political backing, and the Downeaster route is in-place. However, I don't see connecting the dots between the two... too slow connecting the key endpoints and not enough population between to justify all the stops. A far more realistic (but still unlikely) extension north of Boston to Canada would be to New Brunswick and potentially to Halifax, as was discussed here some time ago when its proposal resurfaced. (See "The Gull".) A Boston-Montreal train needs a much straighter line, which would be cost-prohibitive, or simply a rethink of the Vermonter/Montrealer route.

 

[railiner]

Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares?
I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?

In light of the dearth of political support for VIA, I wonder how much political support for service to Sherbrooke would be?

I agree, the most likely route for a Boston/Montreal train would be from Boston to Palmer or Springfield, and then North…

 

[jiml]

Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares?
I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?

Yes, I recall that proposal too. I believe it was intending to use a more conventional routing via either the Adirondack or Vermonter tracks. Of course we know, from parallel discussion, the issues with either of those right now on the Quebec end.

In light of the dearth of political support for VIA, I wonder how much political support for service to Sherbrooke would be?

I think the interest in Montreal - Sherbrooke would be regional rather than VIA-level. Heck, in Toronto or some US cities this would already be a commuter line.

 

[fdaley]

Well, it's nice to dream, isn't it? The Gazette story never mentions the border crossing or what sort of rigmarole the customs agencies on both sides might require, which to me seems like the biggest obstacle among many to this service becoming a reality.

Of course I'd love to see it, and I'd find occasions to ride it -- as long as I didn't have to pile off with my luggage for customs inspection in the middle of a winter night at Island Pond.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

Good for them for being optimistic and trying to do something positive. I wish them well.

 

[Fenway]

Wasn’t some private enterprise proposing a Montreal/Boston train a few years back, and actively soliciting shares?
I don’t recall the details of that, except that they produced some slick promotional materials in support of it, including some well known supporters.
I don’t know if it was an honest endeavor, or an elaborate scam, but in any event, it faded away into oblivion. I wonder if there’s any connection with this latest proposal?

In light of the dearth of political support for VIA, I wonder how much political support for service to Sherbrooke would be?

I agree, the most likely route for a Boston/Montreal train would be from Boston to Palmer or Springfield, and then North…

Yes back in 2013

Many at the meeting gave Rebello $250 checks made out to “Fondation Trains de Nuit,” which means “Night Trains Foundation.”

Rebello, a former politician in Quebec, would not say how much he raised, but said it was enough to create a detailed operating plan, which is required by the railroads that own the lines between Montreal and Boston.

https://www.pressherald.com/2013/12/06/montreal-to-boston_night_train_gains_steam_/

 

[MARC Rider]

Looking at a railroad map of New Hampshire, it seems that at one time, there were tracks down from Littleton towards Plymouth, Concord (the state capital) and Manchester which would make a much more direct route for this service. It's a shame the tracks were pulled.

 

[keelhauled]

Even more direct was the B&M between White River Junction and Concord. There were also east/southeast tracks from Wells River, Claremont, and Bellows Falls towards Boston. Now and again advocacy groups will suggest Burlington/Montreal to Boston trains via Springfield MA, but in my opinion they're tilting at windmills; I think those trains died for well and good when the tracks were severed east of White River Junction. There's just no way to beat Interstate 89.

 

[fdaley]

Yeah, all of the historical north-south routes through New Hampshire have been defunct for decades. In some cases the rights of way and even tracks are still in place, and there are low-speed tourist operations on a few portions, but for the purpose of real intercity passenger service, you'd essentially be rebuilding them from scratch.

One good thing about this proposal is that the tracks involved are all in comparatively decent shape now. Some upgrades probably would be needed, but an overnight train probably would have more tolerance for some stretches of 40 mph running.

Of course, a multi-frequency corridor between Montreal and Sherbrooke would need to be a lot faster than that to be competitive with the parallel superhighway, so some real investment would be needed there. And I'm not clear at all where that kind of money would come from in the current Canadian system -- certainly not from VIA, which has only the most skeletal system outside the Quebec-Windsor corridor. And the provinces seem more focused on much shorter-distance commuter services, most of which are rather slow.

 

[Fenway]

From 1946 - there were several options




This option is one my Mom remembered taking



I-89 and to lesser extent I-93 killed any reason for the RR's to exist. I can remember a family vacation in 1962 that driving from Boston to Montreal was an adventure - especially Vermont Rte 14.

Vermont Transit bus by the late 60s had a reliable red eye in both directions between Boston and Montreal and airfare between the 2 cities was reasonably priced.

New Hampshire decided back in 1981 that commuter rail from Concord, Manchester, Merrimack and Nashua to Boston was not worth subsidizing.

 

[cfillekes]

The Montreal - Sherbrooke route has been a target for restored train service since the discontinuation of VIA's Atlantic, so that part may find ...

Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.

 

[jiml]

Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.

You may be thinking of the Ocean, which runs entirely in Canada Montreal - Halifax and was reinstated following a Covid hiatus. The last VIA Atlantic, which ran through Maine, was near the end of 1994. CP had announced its intention to sell the tracks it ran on, making the train's future uncertain. (It had already endured several government cutbacks.) This ended service to Sherbrooke and a couple of towns in Maine.

 

[MARC Rider]

Wait, VIA discontinued the Atlantic? When was that? I know they stopped going right out to the end of Gaspe peninsula, but there's no longer a train between QC & Halifax? What? I'm literally booking something on that route RN just to see, and it looks like it's still operating -- but only to Bathurst.

No, the Atlantic ran right through Maine, and not only served Sherbrooke, it also served St. John, NB. The Ocean, the current train to Halifax, runs entirely within Canda and doesn't involve any customs checks.

Here's a picture of the signboard at the station in Brownsville, Jct. Maine in 1988:


By the way, this train involved two customs checks in the middle of the night -- one when leaving Canada and entering Maine, the other when leaving Maine and entering Canada. And done at inconvenient times. I think that the through passengers may have been in sealed cars, though. Given the reluctance that CBP and CBSA have with processing the current trans-border trains, I don't think this service is on the short list for revival.

 

[fdaley]

The two-customs-checks-en-route routine on the Atlantic was only in effect for some months after the service was restored in the summer of '85. It was of course really unpopular, so the customs agencies, with some prodding by elected officials on both sides of the border, came up with something a lot more sensible. All of the doors except one coach door were sealed for the trip across Maine. Anyone getting on or off in Maine had to board or exit using that door, though Maine passengers had the full use of the train while on board -- i.e., they could book sleeper rooms, hang out in the dome, etc. People traveling between points in Canada, which was the vast majority of the riders, were exempt from the customs checks.

Two pairs of U.S. customs officers rode the trains to monitor the doors and to interview anyone getting off in Maine. One pair boarded the westbound at Vanceboro, and the other boarded the eastbound at Jackman. When the trains passed at a siding near Greenville, the two customs teams switched trains and rode back to their home station. People who boarded in Maine were interviewed by Canadian customs on board when the eastbound reached McAdam (about 6 to 7 a.m.) or when the westbound reached Megantic (about 3:30 a.m., which was still a bit harsh).

Anyway, it was a system that worked well from 1986 till the service ended in 1994, but it's hard to imagine either of the customs agencies agreeing to something like that now. But it wouldn't be applicable to the service being discussed in this thread, for which all of the people crossing the border would necessarily be going from one country into the other, rather than just passing through.

 

[Anderson]

I'm doubtful of the overall proposal. Montreal-Sherbrooke is probably viable as a provincial-level project (it doesn't cross a border, etc.). Montreal-Candiac already has service on the commuter system, so I could see a case for extending service further out (though that line goes into Windsor Station instead of Gare Centrale).

The 14-hour runtime isn't actually horrid in some respects...if you leave Montreal at 7 PM, you'd get into Boston at about 9 AM. I think you'd have decent O/D traffic on both ends (Montreal-Sherbrooke and Portland-Boston). The question would be intermediate traffic...and I think you could get a respectable amount of that (maybe 50-75k/yr?).

 

[railiner]

You may be thinking of the Ocean, which runs entirely in Canada Montreal - Halifax and was reinstated following a Covid hiatus. The last VIA Atlantic, which ran through Maine, was near the end of 1994. CP had announced its intention to sell the tracks it ran on, making the train's future uncertain. (It had already endured several government cutbacks.) This ended service to Sherbrooke and a couple of towns in Maine.

The CP, and later VIA operated Atlantic LTD, was the only passenger train in the state of Maine, from a few years before the time Amtrak began in 1971, until the Downeaster began service, over thirty years later...

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

This is actually a pretty intriguing proposal and if buy in on each end by the various transit agencies could be accomplished... (right?)

 

[jiml]

As a reference point, this was the last VIA Atlantic timetable:

 

[Exvalley]

Montreal to Sherbrooke is low hanging fruit. There have been proposals already for that route, and I have a feeling that we will see it someday. Perhaps when the light rail project in Montreal is complete and the province has the appetite to spend more money on rail.

As far as the complaint that the Boston to Montreal journey is 14 hours - I don't see a major problem with that for an overnight train. I would much rather the trip be 10-14 hours than the 5 hours that it takes to drive between the two cities. Granted, 14 hours is on the high end. 10-12 would be ideal. And none of this applies to a train that runs during the day.

While the odds of this project happening are not great - this is EXACTLY the type of rail project that we need. We need to start connecting major cities with overnight service, just as they are doing in Europe. The eastern seaboard has a lot of potential for this type of service.

 

[Bonser]

Right now I'd settle for the return of the Adirondack.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Often I ponder whether it would make sense to restart the Montrealer to compliment the existing Vermonter, but have the train split in half at Albany like the LSL, with a few coaches and a sleeper going to Boston.

Of course, this would require some upgrades to the existing east-west rail.
I realize just how unlikely this is, but its a nice thought.

 

[Exvalley]

Often I ponder whether it would make sense to restart the Montrealer to compliment the existing Vermonter, but have the train split in half at Albany like the LSL, with a few coaches and a sleeper going to Boston.

What about splitting the train in Springfield? I'm not sure if Springfield has the infrastructure to do that, but it avoids the slow trip through the Berkshires to get to Boston.