Brand new coaches in India

[caravanman]

I have suddenly started receiving facebook posts from Indian Railways. Most are very self congratulatory in tone, about the expansion of lines etc.
However, I was impressed by the news that the India Coachbuilding Facilities had constructed 355 new coaches in April this year...**
Maybe Amtrak could think about obtaining some new coaches from India?

** Possibly something lost in translation, maybe in the year to April 2022, still impressive!

 

[jis]

India has almost zero surplus capacity. They had a great deal of trouble even producing and delivering 150 coaches to Bangladesh couple of years back. So much so that Bangladesh never placed another order with Indian coach builders and went back whole hog to the Indonesians for their next large order. Additionally, it will take a while to get these coaches FRA certified, though they are allegedly UIC compliant.

And the real fly in the ointment is that reading the complaints from Indian riders and advocates it appears that the workmanship is pretty shoddy, which is actually not unusual.

At least I would be very careful before acquiring anything from these coach builders.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Are these "self-built" by Indian Railways (or a wholly owned subsidiary company)?

 

[jis]

Are these "self-built" by Indian Railways (or a wholly owned subsidiary company)?

A mix of wholly owned subsidiary companies (ICF, RCF, MCF)and private companies. In general I believe the main line LHB cars are built by wholly owned subsidiaries while the more advanced Metro system consists are a mix of joint venture or private companies and some straight imports, together with some from ICF.

Incidentally ICF (Integral Coach Factory) was originally set up to build integral coaches based on a design from Schlieren in the '60s. This is how IR got into transitioning from car on base frame architecture coaches to monococque coaches. Almost all main line passenger rolling stock was ICF build (original design and derivative) with some additional ones manufactured by BEML (Bharat Earth Movers Limited) and Jessops, by the '00s. Then a new design was purchased from the LHB subsidiary of Alstom and RCF was set up to manufacture those. Since then ICF has transitioned over completely to LHB and MCF has been set up as an additional plant to try to meet the enormous demand for cars. All three now build mostly LHB derived designs, including the much ballyhooed distributed power articulated EMU 'Vande Bharat' consists. Currently there are 3 in operation and 50 on order for deployment in the long distance network.

Incidentally @caravanman somewhere between 4,000 to 6,000 coaches a year is about the right number depending on what is or is not counted. For just LHB these days about 4,500 is probably close enough. Afterall all of those 60,000+ old coaches have to be replaced. The LHBs are an order of magnitude more survivable in accidents compared to the old Schlierens and they also have slightly higher capacity being 10' longer at 75' compared to the 65' of the Schlierens. LHBs also come with tightlock couplers and air brakes (as opposed to vacuum brakes) which has proved to be a tremendous lifesaver.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Wow, that's an enormous amount - and thank you so much for the detailed explanation, JIS!

 

[jis]

The standard LHB cars are UIC loading gauge. There is an entire separate loading gauge cars for use in electrified suburban service in many cities in India. These cars are 12' wide (compared to 10.5' of the UIC standard cars, and they are all EMUs. They are manufactured by various companies including ICF and are equipped with several different sourced electric drive components.

This is the reason IR has two types of EMUs, the plain EMUs which are the wide loading gauge cars used in Suburban service, and MEMUs (Mainline EMUs) which are standard loading gauge and are used on Regional stopping service beyond the suburban zones in areas that cannot accommodate 12' wide cars.

Now of course the 'Vande Bharat' Class EMUs are being developed for use in the long distance network. These are articulated distributed power trains with something like 18 to 24 cars. Currently they are available only in Day configurations (used on a few Shatabdi routes) but allegedly a Sleeper configuration for use on Rajdhani Expresses is imminent. Merely the performance improvement due to distributed power is supposed to cut as much as two hours from the current 15-17 hour overnight runs of the Rajdhanis on the New Delhi - Mumbai Central and New Delhi - Howrah/Sealdah (Kolkata) routes. Increasing top speed from 130kph to 160kph (100mph) is expected to bring those running times withing shouting range of 12-13 hours. The consists themselves are 200kph (125mph) capable but the tracks are not.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

One presumes that the suburban lines/stations/platforms are separate with that much of a different loading gauge? Of course, one must ask the question.

I really do want to go to India and take one of the touristy luxury sleeper trains, just for the heck of it (plus seeing India of course).

 

[jis]

One presumes that the suburban lines/stations/platforms are separate with that much of a different loading gauge? Of course, one must ask the question.

I really do want to go to India and take one of the touristy luxury sleeper trains, just for the heck of it (plus seeing India of course).

No. Same platform. The platform surface is lower than the train floor. Suburban trains overhang a bit over the platform while regular trains are a little further away.

Suburban train:

Main line train:

Incidentally, that is an LHB Coach. It is a day coach for Shatabdi Express. In Hindi it says "Watanukulit Kursiyan" which means Airconditioned Chair Car.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Cool, thank you!

 

[caravanman]

The original post was a bit tongue in cheek, just a jibe at Amtrak's lack of rolling stock...

It is refreshing however to see so much investment, expansion of services and facilities, for rail in India.

 

[jis]

The original post was a bit tongue in cheek, just a jibe at Amtrak's lack of rolling stock...

It is refreshing however to see so much investment, expansion of services and facilities, for rail in India.

As you know, I will take almost any opportunity to praise where praise is due and criticize where such is due in equal measure about happenings on Indian Railways. Afterall it was and is my first love as far a railways go. I grew up with it and cheers me when it does good and pains me when it makes silly mistakes, particularly if it is precipitated due to petty politics.

Truth be told Indian Railways is much more of a political creature than Amtrak is. It is essentially controlled wholly by a Railway Board which reports to the federal Ministry of Railways with a full Minister and a Minister of State and a Deputy Minister overseeing it. Its budget is presented and approved as part of the federal budget and the nation waits with bated breath for that budget to see how it will affect their lives in terms of fares and expansion of service. It is a very different scenario from what Amtrak faces in the US.

Incidentally, for several years before he retired, a cousin (by marriage) of mine was the Member Finance of the Railway Board and the Finance Commissioner of Indian Railways. So he basically controlled the financial affairs of Indian Railways, reporting to the Railway Board. Oh the various stories he had to tell, though naturally he was very careful and cagey about many things. When he worked at Eastern Railways Zonal HQ at Fariley Place in Kolkata on several occasions I had the pleasure of tagging along with him in a Saloon as he went out to visit Divisional HQs. That is about as close as you can get to riding a lavish PV on Indian Railways other than shelling out mucho dinero to ride the Tourist Service trains like the Palace on Wheels.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Of course Indian Railways is a much more important institution there than Amtrak is in the US. It is a vital service whereas if Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow nobody outside the NEC and maybe California would even notice

 

[jis]

Of course Indian Railways is a much more important institution there than Amtrak is in the US. It is a vital service whereas if Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow nobody outside the NEC and maybe California would even notice☹

Indeed IR is not just important and vital. It is critical. Think of it as equivalent to the Interstate Highway system in the US. And incidentally, India is furiously building an interstate limited access highway system in addition to maintaining and enhancing Indian Railways.

Indian economy would collapse if Indian Railways was significantly damaged, and the politicians know that one of the easiest paths to the exit door from their careers is to cause visible harm to Indian Railways as perceived by the electorate. Very different indeed!

Incidentally, something not very well publicized outside India, in the last two weeks demand for power due to the heat wave is causing spot shortages. To address that all power houses are being brought up to run at full speed leading to spot shortages of Coal at the power houses. In order to address that Indian Railways has been selectively canceling passenger trains on vital routes in order to create slots for Coal trains to top up Coal supplies at thermal power plants. This will last until the heatwave subsides.

 

[CCC1007]

Of course Indian Railways is a much more important institution there than Amtrak is in the US. It is a vital service whereas if Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow nobody outside the NEC and maybe California would even notice☹

I think you underestimate the role some of the LD trains play in rural areas of the west… just look at the ridership vs population statistics for the empire builder as an example, especially across the states of Montana and North Dakota

 

[BlackDiamond]

I think you underestimate the role some of the LD trains play in rural areas of the west… just look at the ridership vs population statistics for the empire builder as an example, especially across the states of Montana and North Dakota

I agree I was being somewhat facetious. I was thinking of public perception in general, where many people don't even consider the train as an option when traveling.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I was thinking of public perception in general, where many people don't even consider the train as an option when traveling.

Most people I know have at least considered it. It's usually a mix of limited routes, slow speeds, poor calling times, and high cost that weakens their enthusiasm. Those that do try Amtrak seem to enjoy the experience but struggle with bossy crews and lackluster service. One or two trips and then "never again."

 

[Deni]

Of course Indian Railways is a much more important institution there than Amtrak is in the US. It is a vital service whereas if Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow nobody outside the NEC and maybe California would even notice☹

It would be a huge deal if the Chicago-based corridor trains serving downstate IL, MI, Milwaukee, and St. Louis went away.