BREAKING NEWS: Wisconsin Purchises Two Talgo Sets

[ALC Rail Writer]

Woohoo! Go Wisconsin! The addition of TALGOs will definitely upgrade the level of service on the Hiawathas. Question though, will the Talgos have a cafe car? I believe the ones in WA do.

The Talgos on Cascades service have both Café and a "Dining" Car which is, for all intent and purpose, a lounge car.

 

[Cascadia]

The ones we have here in Washington are 10 or 12 years old, I believe. Does anyone know if the latest Talgo product differs in any recognizable way from the older models? I know they are structurally upgraded for the FRA standards. But are the interior arrangements any different?

Supposedly the train I normally ride 510/517 is going back to being a Talgo set soon, after being Superliners for more than 2 years now. But that was supposed to happen ages ago and still hasn't, so we'll see if this new date they gave brings Talgos. I much prefer the Superliners and will be sorry to see them go. Oh well the Talgos have nice big windows gotta look on the bright side.

Kind of cool to hear of Wisconsin doing this although I wish they would have chosen something different. Are there really very many options though?

 

[AlanB]

What about the arguments about a unique small fleet, the need for dedicated spare parts and additional training, the fixed consist nature of the train, etc.? Those are always used as arguments against the Turboliners, Acela, etc.
But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!

Unlike the Turboliner's, Wisconson will not only own these news cars, but they along with Illinois pay Amtrak to operate the Hiawathas. In the case of the Turboliners, Amtrak was stuck with all the bills, while NY paid for nothing.

 

[AlanB]

The Talgos on Cascades service have both Café and a "Dining" Car which is, for all intent and purpose, a lounge car.

Amtrak used the dining car as a dining car on the service to/from Canada.

 

[AlanB]

Supposedly the train I normally ride 510/517 is going back to being a Talgo set soon, after being Superliners for more than 2 years now. But that was supposed to happen ages ago and still hasn't, so we'll see if this new date they gave brings Talgos. I much prefer the Superliners and will be sorry to see them go. Oh well the Talgos have nice big windows gotta look on the bright side.

It's in the computer and they are selling business class seats for the Talgos starting next Saturday. I updgraded so I'll be very unhappy if they suddenly pull it from service and leave the Superliner's there.

However, at least initially, the dining car will not be in service.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But I think this is definitely good news, as long as Amtrak doesn't steal the trains and haul 'em off to Delaware!

The trains will be owned by the state of Wisconsin, not Amtrak:

"They would replace aging trains on Amtrak’s Hiawatha line between Milwaukee and Chicago, which Wisconsin and Illinois pay for Amtrak to operate, about $7 million last year. Klein said the state’s costs would go down because it would own the trains rather than use Amtrak’s."

See full article here: Wisconsin State Journal

The Turboliners were owned by NYS.

The Turboliners were not owned by NYS. Oddity in the contract: they would not pass to NYS ownership until Amtrak accepted them for use. So, in reality, they are owned by Amtrak, not NYS.

 

[wrjensen]

Is part of the high speed have money to upgrade the MKE-CHI line? Currently they uses 2 trainset if the line is extended to Madison it seems they will need more then two trainsets unless they speed up the line

 

[John Bredin]

Is part of the high speed have money to upgrade the MKE-CHI line? Currently they uses 2 trainset if the line is extended to Madison it seems they will need more then two trainsets unless they speed up the line.

"Wisconsin will purchase two, 14-car train sets for $47 million. The agreement provides an option to buy two additional train sets if the state is successful in securing federal American Recovery and Reinvestment Act funding for the extension of passenger rail service from Milwaukee to Madison. " Cite

 

[BigBlueBuddha]

Update and rationale for tilt-train technology:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/52231522.html

 

[sechs]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

 

[Steve4031]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

How many Talgo trains are there in the Northwest? Potentially, more of these trains could be used for other Midwest corridor if other states put in orders.

I like these trains, but I was wondering how they would handle the winters in the midwest? Would severe cold hamper the tilting mechanism and the toilets, etc? I know Amtrak's other single level equipment has taken a beating in Chicago during the winter. I think that is why there was an interest in the bilevel cars for the Midwest.

 

[EB_OBS]

There are five Talgo trainsets currently operating in the Pacific Northwest. As far as winter goes, in my experience last winter there were more problems with rail and switches than with the trains.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

 

[Steve4031]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

 

[jamesontheroad]

The ones we have here in Washington are 10 or 12 years old, I believe. Does anyone know if the latest Talgo product differs in any recognizable way from the older models? I know they are structurally upgraded for the FRA standards. But are the interior arrangements any different?

Some clues: http://www.talgoamerica.com/

 

[jphjaxfl]

I rode Spanish Talgos from Madrid to Barcelona in the early 1970s and it was very enjoyable. I was in first class and they served a very nice full course dinner at individual seats. ACF had tried to sell Talgos in the the US and I think there was 1 or 2 that operated in the 1950s, but since most US Railroads were getting out of the passenger business, there was no market. The Madrid-Barcelona line has a number of curves, but the ride was very smooth. Its ironic that after ACF is long dead, Talgo will be alive in the US.

 

[wrjensen]

the MKE papers over the weekend said they are looking at building them at the old GM plant in Janeville or contract them out to Super Steel and build them in MKE where the Nippon and Alstom cars are built

 

[saxman]

the MKE papers over the weekend said they are looking at building them at the old GM plant in Janeville or contract them out to Super Steel and build them in MKE where the Nippon and Alstom cars are built

Looks like the mayor of Milwaukee is trying to get them to build the train sets there:

State touts no-bid deal with Spanish train firmBy Larry Sandler, Stacy Forster and Patrick Marley of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: July 31, 2009

A Spanish train company landed a $47 million state contract without competitive bidding, because using its trains will cut the cost of building a high-speed rail network by hundreds of millions of dollars, state officials say.

The no-bid deal was allowed under a 12-year-old law that exempts all of the state's passenger rail contracts from normal bidding rules.

Link to the article

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.

 

[volkris]

Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.

Nonsense.

Quite often there will be only one company able to do a job or one that's known ahead of time to be the only one willing to do it for an acceptable price. The bidding process is wasteful in terms of both time and money in such cases. Ironically, sometimes it can even open up the potential for greater abuse as the image of openness and propriety can shield badly written RFPs targeted at benefiting specific people or organizations.

The evil no-bid job has lately became a symbol for political activism, twisting its actual nature far out of reality. And that will end badly for the taxpayer.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Idiots... no-bid jobs always end badly for the taxpayer.

Nonsense.

Quite often there will be only one company able to do a job or one that's known ahead of time to be the only one willing to do it for an acceptable price. The bidding process is wasteful in terms of both time and money in such cases. Ironically, sometimes it can even open up the potential for greater abuse as the image of openness and propriety can shield badly written RFPs targeted at benefiting specific people or organizations.

The evil no-bid job has lately became a symbol for political activism, twisting its actual nature far out of reality. And that will end badly for the taxpayer.

Whatever-- your logic has never made logical sense.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

 

[frj1983]

I guess that's a pretty good reason to go with tilting trains. I guess only Talgo was hungry enough to submit for what will be a relatively small order.

When you get down to it and the investigations are complete, you will probably find a tidy sum of money changing hands somewhere.

Is there anything specific that makes you questions this transaction? I know there is a lot of corruption in Illinois, but I had not noticed anything lately in Wisconsin.

Nothing other then my general assumption whenever no-bid job and foreign concern appear in the same deal. Especially with Asian companies- which I know Talgo is not. Bribing is the way certain cultures do these things. If you want proof, you'll have to look elsewhere for I have none.

ALC, for once, and it pains me a lot to say this, Vokris does have a point- there are times when bidding is not worth what it costs.

However... Talgo is not the only company who builds tilting trainsets. The UAC TurboTrain was a pendular design. Bombardier's Acela and LRC sets tilt. I'm pretty sure the Pendalinos are Italian (Fiat comes to mind) and not Talgo. Since there are other possible designs, I question the logic. So while Volkris does make a valid point, I disagree that it applies to this instance.

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Plenty of Builders???

here's what the article says:

When the Transportation Department asked seven major train manufacturers - four from Europe and three from Asia - for information on their ability to provide the trains, only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response, said Robert Jambois, the department's general counsel. Nippon Sharyo sent a letter and France's Alstom Transport sent an e-mail, neither of which were available Friday, Jambois said.

Note: only Talgo submitted a formal detailed response! Nippon Sharyo and Alstom basically flipped it off. No-one else responded...where do you get plenty of builders from this?? What a previous poster mentioned seems to come in play here:a Company wanting to build a small order, is what seems to have motivated Talgo (that plus the propaganda). The other companies were obviously too busy building train sets for other States/Railroads and couldn't be bothered. :huh:

 

[Neil_M]

This smells like a corrupt bargain to me-- There were plenty of companies on the table and some of which that build better trains. For Wisconsin to just up and announce that they struck a deal with Talgo means money has changed hands... or that some yuppie state Senator went to Washington for a vacation, rode the train, and said "hey, I want a silly Starbucks on wheels-- if I can get this it will win me another term!"

Any facts behind that or is it just to do with you not liking Talgos?! :lol: