Brightline & Florida Cruise traffic

[JWM]

I was a travel agent for seventeen years and something just hit me in the head. How many passengers from the Florida Gulf Coast, Orlando and Southeast Florida take cruises out of Fort Lauderdale and Miami? I'd say lots. Someone at Brightline should get with the cruise lines and offer their service rather than air in those markets. Imagine that even with a "Premium Fare", it would be much less than air. I live in Sarasota and our closest airport for a great choice of flights is Orlando. So, I drive to Orlando, park the car, get dropped off at the airport, go to the Brightline check in, my bags go on the train, and I pick them up in Miami. The Port of Miami is under two miles away, so I free Uber service there. No brainer, I'd say. Comments.

 

[joelkfla]

I was a travel agent for seventeen years and something just hit me in the head. How many passengers from the Florida Gulf Coast, Orlando and Southeast Florida take cruises out of Fort Lauderdale and Miami? I'd say lots. Someone at Brightline should get with the cruise lines and offer their service rather than air in those markets. Imagine that even with a "Premium Fare", it would be much less than air. I live in Sarasota and our closest airport for a great choice of flights is Orlando. So, I drive to Orlando, park the car, get dropped off at the airport, go to the Brightline check in, my bags go on the train, and I pick them up in Miami. The Port of Miami is under two miles away, so I free Uber service there. No brainer, I'd say. Comments.

You're a bit late with that idea.
https://www.gobrightline.com/events/cruise

 

[west point]

There have been outside forces that limited Brightline. Once it gets to Tampa that market to south Florida will explode. The slow Star to / from south Florida <> TPA Mia is often near or sold out. Brightline's early day trips TPA - S Florida will really serve the cruise industry.

 

[user 1215]

There have been outside forces that limited Brightline. Once it gets to Tampa that market to south Florida will explode. The slow Star to / from south Florida <> TPA Mia is often near or sold out. Brightline's early day trips TPA - S Florida will really serve the cruise industry.

Even more so when a station opens in Cocoa...

 

[jis]

Even more so when a station opens in Cocoa...

Indeed! Most people don't realize that Port Canaveral is now a much larger Cruise Port than Port Everglades or Miami. As a matter of fact it is now allegedly the largest cruise port in the world! Interestingly, right next to the world's largest Spaceport to boot

Final negotiations for the Cocoa Station is going on as we speak, this month, between Brightline and Brevard County.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Most people don't realize that Port Canaveral is now a much larger Cruise Port than Port Everglades or Miami.

Interesting. I didn't know that. Probably because we always cruise on Princess and they usual go out of Port Everglades, whereas Port Canaveral seems to be mostly used by Carnival, Disney, and Royal Caribbean

 

[Brian_tampa]

Years ago when AAF negotiated the lease with what is now CFX, there is a stipulation that a per passenger fee is charged to Brightline for any passenger going to or from Brevard County from MCO. I don't recall what the fee is but I do remember it is also structured to be based on inflation over a 49 or 99 year timeline.

I wonder how this will impact any potential future Brevard County stop.

 

[jis]

Years ago when AAF negotiated the lease with what is now CFX, there is a stipulation that a per passenger fee is charged to Brightline for any passenger going to or from Brevard County from MCO. I don't recall what the fee is but I do remember it is also structured to be based on inflation over a 49 or 99 year timeline.

I wonder how this will impact any potential future Brevard County stop.

They will have to negotiate a fee per ticket. It is expected to be in the ballpark of less than $1. Even if you assume all cars carry a single person, it should come in at less than $1 per ticket to compensate for the lost toll.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Yes it was minimal but still not insignificant. I also understand that use of the 528 or 417 right of ways to the west of MCO will also trigger some sort of fee. I don't recall if FDOT is charging their own fee for the toll roads they control at the east end of 528 and the west end of 417 near Disney.

Brightline had to perform traffic studies that would estimate the number of vehicles removed from CFX roads in order to get the lease aproved.

 

[jis]

Yes it was minimal but still not insignificant. I also understand that use of the 528 or 417 right of ways to the west of MCO will also trigger some sort of fee. I don't recall if FDOT is charging their own fee for the toll roads they control at the east end of 528 and the west end of 417 near Disney.

Brightline had to perform traffic studies that would estimate the number of vehicles removed from CFX roads in order to get the lease aproved.

SR528 controlled by FDOT has no tolls east of the SR520 interchange, so it would be weird to try to charge tolls only for rail passengers though, one would think.

 

[Brian_tampa]

They will have to negotiate a fee per ticket. It is expected to be in the ballpark of less than $1. Even if you assume all cars carry a single person, it should come in at less than $1 per ticket to compensate for the lost toll.

The fee has already been baked in as part of the lease agreed upon back in 2014 or so. It is not based on cars being diverted but on Brightline ticket sales between MCO and any future stop in Orange County or Brevard. This is also an issue with traffic on 417 west of the airport. Any reduction in traffic on 417 has to be accounted for. Obviously most people from Tampa will take the 417 versus 528 to get to MCO. So it is a real concern of CFX. If I recall, CFX will take a portion of all ticket revenue between Tampa and MCO.

 

[Brian_tampa]

SR528 controlled by FDOT has no tolls east of the SR520 interchange, so it would be weird to try to charge tolls only for rail passengers though, one would think.

My understanding is that the east portion of 528 is part of the Florida Tollway (Turnpike) Authority system. Maybe they collect a toll based on the toll stations on CFX property?

 

[jis]

My understanding is that the east portion of 528 is part of the Florida Tollway (Turnpike) Authority system. Maybe they collect a toll based on the toll stations on CFX property?

According to the folks that I talked to at Brightline they had to negotiate with FDOT for that part. FDOT wanted the track as close as possible to the highway, while CFX wanted the tracks as far away as possible. I don’t know anything beyond that. On the road there are signs that say where FDOT ends and CFX begins, and that lines up well with the location of tracks, pretty weird if you ask me.

 

[Brian_tampa]

According to the folks that I talked to at Brightline they had to negotiate with FDOT for that part. FDOT wanted the track as close as possible to the highway, while CFX wanted the tracks as far away as possible. I don’t know anything beyond that. On the road there are signs that say where FDOT ends and CFX begins, and that lines up well with the location of tracks, pretty weird if you ask me.

Yeah that's my recollection as well. Brightline pays a portion of every ticket between MCO and Brevard to CFX and FDOT. It sucks because one would think it would reduce road maintenance. But FDOT is thinking it will impact toll revenue on the Florida Turnpike between Orlando and Ft Pierce I guess. Which is a real possibility. Being from Tampa, I always switch from the Turnpike to 95 at Ft Pierce. Or I take US27 down the center of the state. That is a much better drive than the Turnpike or I-75! I detest highway 60 between Tampa and Yeehaw Junction to be honest...

 

[Scott Orlando]

I seem to recall at one point there was a thought/plan to utilize the tracks to the port in Miami and have a station on Dodge Island. Seamless rail to cruise transportation. The track to the port begins just north of the BL downtown Miami station. Anyone have any idea what happened with that? Jis maybe?

 

[jis]

I seem to recall at one point there was a thought/plan to utilize the tracks to the port in Miami and have a station on Dodge Island. Seamless rail to cruise transportation. The track to the port begins just north of the BL downtown Miami station. Anyone have any idea what happened with that? Jis maybe?

Branson went away and with that the funding that was supposed to come from Virgin Cruise went away and Brightline lost interest. It is pretty dead now. Even when it was alive the life juice was the expected subsidy from Virgin.

 

[railiner]

I seem to recall at one point there was a thought/plan to utilize the tracks to the port in Miami and have a station on Dodge Island. Seamless rail to cruise transportation

That would have been great. I certainly would have used it, rather than my current practice of driving from WPB for shorter cruises, or using Tri Rail plus Uber for longer ones…

That is, if Brightline served other cruise lines besides the original arrangement with Virgin…

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That would have been great. I certainly would have used it, rather than my current practice of driving from WPB for shorter cruises, or using Tri Rail plus Uber for longer ones…

That is, if Brightline served other cruise lines besides the original arrangement with Virgin…

The Brightline station is very close to the cruise terminals. I've taken Uber and also used the free Miami Trolley when I had the time.

 

[railiner]

When Tri Rail starts using the Brightline Miami station, naturally, I’ll do that. The Tri Rail location in WPB is slightly more convenient for me, and the fares on Tri Rail are a fraction.

But if Brightline would go directly to the Dodge Island cruise terminals, the higher fares would be “worth it”…

 

[John Bredin]

[Looks at map.] Has anyone suggested having that Metromover thing serve Dodge Island, or have the cab/Uber/Lyft drivers put up too much opposition?

 

[jis]

[Looks at map.] Has anyone suggested having that Metromover thing serve Dodge Island, or have the cab/Uber/Lyft drivers put up too much opposition?

Only Metromover extension that is planned:

https://www.thenextmiami.com/metromover-to-miami-beach-expected-to-open-in-2028-or-2029/
Dodge Island is advertised as a 4 minute or so walk from the Bayside Metromover station, not exactly great for lugging baggage to cruise ships. But unless the Cruise operators pony up, it is unlikely that Miami or FDOT will unilaterally do anything about it. Afterall, it has been like pulling teeth to get anything going to South Beach, which has orders of magnitude more potential users.

 

[joelkfla]

Only Metromover extension that is planned:

https://www.thenextmiami.com/metromover-to-miami-beach-expected-to-open-in-2028-or-2029/
Dodge Island is advertised as a 4 minute or so walk from the Bayside Metromover station, not exactly great for lugging baggage to cruise ships. But unless the Cruise operators pony up, it is unlikely that Miami or FDOT will unilaterally do anything about it. Afterall, it has been like pulling teeth to get anything going to South Beach, which has orders of magnitude more potential users.

"The Metromover expansion to South Beach replaces a previous plan for a monorail on the route."

Most tourists will think it's a monorail anyway. I can't count the number of times I've heard the MCO APM's called monorails.

 

[DavidSh]

Does the Metromover have rails? How many? What I find on Google is confusing.

 

[jis]

Does the Metromover have rails? How many? What I find on Google is confusing.

It is a rubber tired vehicle which runs on dual concrete track with a central guiding rail which does not carry any weight.

 

[bonzoesc]

It is a rubber tired vehicle which runs on dual concrete track with a central guiding rail which does not carry any weight.

Yeah, if you've been on an automated people mover at an airport it's one of those, but connecting city blocks to a few Metrorail (normal heavy rail metro system) stations.

Dodge Island is advertised as a 4 minute or so walk from the Bayside Metromover station, not exactly great for lugging baggage to cruise ships.

Dodge Island itself might be a four minute walk from Bayside, but most of the cruise complex isn't a four minute walk from itself, especially with cruise baggage. Those ships are large and numerous.