Brightline Orlando extension

[McIntyre2K7]

There's a good article in Trains Magazine regarding to how Virgin Trains USA is full steam ahead with construction of it's high speed line from West Palm Beach to Orlando. It looks they the are planning an extension to the Port of Miami as well so people can connect to Virgin's cruse ships once flying into Orlando.


https://www.gobrightline.com/sites/default/files/2020-08/Trains Magazine 2020.pdf

 

[rickycourtney]

I thought the article was a fascinating read. Really hope that Brightline is a model for other passenger rail corridors in the years to come.

 

[Willbridge]

Whenever I hear about Brightline I remember that there was a deep thinker at Oregon DOT when I worked there who predicted that there would only be so much capacity in the then expanding highway system and that private operators might be able to run rail service at a profit eventually in some corridors. Of course, in the meantime much of the rail infrastructure and real estate related to the potential service was sold off or degraded, so the Brightline idea will only work in the right scenario.

 

[Anderson]

I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.

 

[railiner]

I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.

At least until the cruise business comes back, fully....

 

[cocojacoby]

I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.

Doesn't make much sense anyway. You still have to transfer via a bus or van from the train to your cruise ship since the terminals are far apart and you will have a lot of luggage. Just as simple (albeit maybe 5 minutes longer ride) from Miami Central. Also this greatly simplifies the scheduling since you won't have some trains going to different terminals..

 

[Palmetto]

FEC has a spur that it uses to get to the port for its freight. So theoretically, passsenger trains could go there, too. The problem is that the spur leaves the main line just north of Miami Central, and trains going to the port would miss it.

 

[cirdan]

FEC has a spur that it uses to get to the port for its freight. So theoretically, passsenger trains could go there, too. The problem is that the spur leaves the main line just north of Miami Central, and trains going to the port would miss it.

Doesn't it actually pass under one corner of the Miami Central complex, or at least the approach viaduct. So it would hypothetically be possible to put in a platform there and link that to the rest of the station by some form of covered walkway or airport style travellator - or if you don't mind going low-tech, just do a backup move.

Another problem at the port of Miami is that the FEC track presently ends in a freight yard, which is used to transfer (mostly) container boxes between ships and trains. That's not really the sort of environment that is attractive (or necessarily even safe) for cruise passengers to be wandering around in. So quite a lot of money would have to be spent to transform it - or build an entirely separate station on the side.

 

[Palmetto]

The port spur just brushes the elevated northeast corner of the station complex at street level. A street level platform, therefore, would have to be built if someone wanted to get off a port-bound train at MiamiCentral. At the port, I think the railroad and the stations would be need to be elevated, with a new section of track built off the FEC spur. I don't know if it's worth it.

 

[jis]

The port spur just brushes the elevated northeast corner of the station complex at street level. A street level platform, therefore, would have to be built if someone wanted to get off a port-bound train at MiamiCentral. At the port, I think the railroad and the stations would be need to be elevated, with a new section of track built off the FEC spur. I don't know if it's worth it.

Just does not seem to be worth it. The port service will at best be a few trains a day, and they are likely to be dedicated to specific set of ships.

Doesn't it actually pass under one corner of the Miami Central complex, or at least the approach viaduct. So it would hypothetically be possible to put in a platform there and link that to the rest of the station by some form of covered walkway or airport style travellator - or if you don't mind going low-tech, just do a backup move.

This is a prime example of a railroad fan fantasy which has no basis in any business justification whatsoever. I have had a brief conversation with Patrick Goddard about this and, well all I can say is keep on dreamin' The port thing is intended to be a low investment side project which brings in some extra revenue, and building elaborate structures for it is inconsistent with the strategy.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

It looks they the are planning an extension to the Port of Miami as well so people can connect to Virgin's cruse ships once flying into Orlando.

Why fly into Orlando and not into Miami?

Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?

 

[McIntyre2K7]

Why fly into Orlando and not into Miami?

Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?

Orlando International had just over 50 million passengers last year vs Miami's 45 million. It's cheaper for the airlines to fly into Orlando as well so I could see Virgin selling a package where it would be cheaper to fly into Orlando and take the train.

For example a 5 night cruise out of Miami would be $950/person (if they select cruise only). However if they select the option where you fly into Orlando and take the train it would be $800/person.

I think the virgin partnership is finished for now so (could be wrong here).

 

[Qapla]

Not to mention that, even though those of us who live in Florida would simply head to Miami, many who come to Florida are doing a "once in a lifetime" excursion and they try to include as much as they can while here. I'm sure there would be enough people who would fly into Orlando to visit Disney first and then head to Miami to take a cruise or just to visit the beach to make having the train between Orlando and Miami a viable option.

For someone taking a two week vacation in Florida, having a stress-free connection between Orlando and Miami would be an additional attraction to their decision to come to Florida for such a vacation.

 

[joelkfla]

Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?

I think the virgin partnership is finished for now so (could be wrong here).

Yes, the Virgin Trains USA brand no longer exists. It's back to Brightline.

 

[jis]

Virgin Trains USA lost its virginity in a manner of speaking. It is back to Brightline. Apparently the dissolution of the relationship was being discussed even before the pandemic struck with full force. But things accelerated after the bankruptcy of major Virgin holdings reduced the value of the brand considerably., making the original agreement financially a liability for Brightline. So FECI terminated the deal.

 

[AM_ROAD]

Virgin Trains USA lost its virginity in a manner of speaking. It is back to Brightline. Apparently the dissolution of the relationship was being discussed even before the pandemic struck with full force. But things accelerated after the bankruptcy of major Virgin holdings reduced the value of the brand considerably., making the original agreement financially a liability for Brightline. So FECI terminated the deal.

I read in an article recently that Palm Bay was listed as a potential station stop. Are they seriously looking at that or is it just a thought?

 

[jis]

I read in an article recently that Palm Bay was listed as a potential station stop. Are they seriously looking at that or is it just a thought?

When Brevard County did a station location study there was one location in Palm Bay in the candidates list. The location that won out for the first station in Brevard County is Cocoa-Rockledge where FECI has a large chunk of property adjacent to the tracks and right on Route 1 adjacent to the local business district. It is just south of where the Orlando extension splits off from the classiv FECR route.So that is where the first station in Brevard County will be built.

 

[railiner]

I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?

And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....

 

[jis]

I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?

And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....

Would that be any different from real estate developer buying up a greenfield property and then developing a Mall as an anchor and then build residential property around it and selling them? This happens all the time. So what is so different about a railroad?

 

[joelkfla]

I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?

And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....

I believe insider trading refers to an individual with advance knowledge of a corporation's plans who uses that knowledge to make an unfair personal gain.

IMO, a corporation acting to profit based on its own plans is not the same. That's just good advanced planning.

 

[railiner]

I believe insider trading refers to an individual with advance knowledge of a corporation's plans who uses that knowledge to make an unfair personal gain.

IMO, a corporation acting to profit based on its own plans is not the same. That's just good advanced planning.

So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?

 

[jis]

So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?

From Wikipedia: "Insider trading is the trading of a public company's stock or other securities (such as bonds or stock options) based on material, nonpublic information about the company. "

It has nothing to do with what happens outside the Securities markets. Its purpose is to ensure fairness in trading in the Securities markets. It is primarily enforced by the SEC in the US.

For more details see Insider trading - Wikipedia

Incidentally this subject is also wildly off topic of this thread.

 

[Brian_tampa]

So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?

As an officer of a corporation or even a real estate agent, if they use privileged information to benefit their own personal situation, in most cases they would be violating company or professional rules and regulations. Most officers (and regular employees too!) of companies have to sign statements that they agree not to share or benefit from "insider knowledge" of company actions. And most every professional licensed occupation has ethics and moral standards that will be upheld by national licensing organizations. These are enforced by state laws and regulations that can and will result in criminal charges of the individual!

As far as Brightline goes, it is the entity that is pursuing station sites. It has a duty to its owners or shareholders to maximize profit as part of its business operations and prevent competitors from gaining knowledge of its business plans. So no, Brightline as a corporation has no obligation to reveal its trade secrets or future plans to the public.

 

[Palmland]

More good news from Brightline on today’s ‘Trains’ Newswire:

Brightline to begin work on Tampa route in 2022; reaching Disney World a priority
Work on Brightline’s planned Orlando-Tampa line line will not begin until 2022, with a goal of operation beginning in 2025. The Tampa Bay Business Journal reports Michael Cegelis, Brightline’s executive vice president of rail infrastructure, laid out that timeline during a recent meeting in which he also said Brightline would study potential shared operations on some of the route with Orlando commuter railroad SunRail. If Brightline and SunRail reach agreement, Brightline would use existing SunRail tracks on part of its route to reach Disney World, while building right-of-way along Interstate 4 to reach Tampa. SunRail would gain the ability to reach Orlando International Airport via Brightline’s tracks [see “Digest: Long Island Rail Road expansion project …,” Trains News Wire, Oct. 9, 2020]. Reaching Disney World has become a higher priority than the Tampa route, playing a part in the current timeline.

 

[joelkfla]

More good news from Brightline on today’s ‘Trains’ Newswire:

Brightline to begin work on Tampa route in 2022; reaching Disney World a priority
Work on Brightline’s planned Orlando-Tampa line line will not begin until 2022, with a goal of operation beginning in 2025. The Tampa Bay Business Journal reports Michael Cegelis, Brightline’s executive vice president of rail infrastructure, laid out that timeline during a recent meeting in which he also said Brightline would study potential shared operations on some of the route with Orlando commuter railroad SunRail. If Brightline and SunRail reach agreement, Brightline would use existing SunRail tracks on part of its route to reach Disney World, while building right-of-way along Interstate 4 to reach Tampa. SunRail would gain the ability to reach Orlando International Airport via Brightline’s tracks [see “Digest: Long Island Rail Road expansion project …,” Trains News Wire, Oct. 9, 2020]. Reaching Disney World has become a higher priority than the Tampa route, playing a part in the current timeline.

This has me puzzled, as I can't see how SunRail ROW helps in getting from the airport to Disney. SunRail runs predominantly north-south until Kissimmee, where it turns WSW to Poinciana. The Poinciana terminus is the closest it comes to Disney, and it's 6.5 miles SSE of the property's southern edge.