Brightline train and fire truck collide in Delray Beach 12/28/24

[Qapla]

How was the engineer spared?

From what I saw on a video about this accident, those engines are designed and built with a "safety cab" design, much like how newer cars are now built, to help protect the cockpit from severe damage if a collision like this.

 

[tgstubbs1]

In the video it looks like the fire truck was only going a couple of miles per hour, I guess they had no clue. If it was going faster the truck might have cleared the tracks.

 

[PVD]

What speed was the Brightline operating at and what was its collision speed? The damage to the loco seemed to suggest not more than 30 MPH?? That seems too slow IMO. Bright lines was really lucky. Collisions at other incidents have locos and many cars derailed. How was the engineer spared? No major injuries as far as we know?

Not knowing the law in FL can there be sovereign immunity invoked in this incident immunization of the fire department?

I don't think so, I believe Florida waives for the purposes of Tort claims. But we need a Florida knowledgeable lawyer (or at least someone very familiar with Florida law to affirm)

 

[alanh]

It amazes me that people who make a living responding to emergencies have this behaviour.

You'd be surprised. Individual seats with seatbelts for each firefighter weren't required until the 1980s. Firefighters still have more fatalities from traffic accidents than fires.

It’s just a confirmation that frequent high speed train operations should be built in a fully grade separated right of way.
Unfortunately for Brightline, that was not possible due to the cost that would have required. This will happen again and again, unless some foolproof means of complete protection can be found and applied at every grade crossing…

The FEC line goes through densely developed areas. Yes, grade separations would take a lot of really expensive real estate. The most practical option would be elevating the line, but that's still extremely expensive and people hate elevated railways.

From looking on Google street view, most of the crossings do not have center medians to discourage switching to the other side. However the fire engine probably would have gone around it anyway.

A few crossings have quad gates but this one did not. That might be a start, though you still have issues with cars stopping on the tracks and pedestrians.

I don't think so, I believe Florida waives for the purposes of Tort claims. But we need a Florida knowledgeable lawyer (or at least someone very familiar with Florida law to affirm)

I am not a lawyer, but it appears that yes they can sue but the limit is $200K per claimant and $300K total. Going higher than that requires an act of the legislature.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

In the video it looks like the fire truck was only going a couple of miles per hour, I guess they had no clue. If it was going faster the truck might have cleared the tracks.

The truck was most likely stopped for the freight train and once it cleared the crossing the truck proceeded to go around the gates. Apparently it never occurred to the driver that the gates did not go up because another train was approaching.

 

[railiner]

It is a 79mph railroad where the event took place. Not high speed by any obtuse definition of the term.

Maybe not in the common definition of “‘high speed rail”, but when you have a train going thru a densely populated area, close by people and vehicles, 79 mph is plenty fast…

 

[jis]

Maybe not in the common definition of “‘high speed rail”, but when you have a train going thru a densely populated area, close by people and vehicles, 79 mph is plenty fast…

My point was it is no different from Amtrak doing 79 just few miles to the west, which though admittedly is not through as dense a population but still with quite dense grade crossings in some stretches.

 

[acelafan]

It’s just a confirmation that frequent high speed train operations should be built in a fully grade separated right of way.
Unfortunately for Brightline, that was not possible due to the cost that would have required. This will happen again and again, unless some foolproof means of complete protection can be found and applied at every grade crossing…

In the meantime, why can't vehicles just not stop on the tracks, or if they must cross like the fire truck, not do so until it's confirmed clear in both directions?

In Taiwan, the RR crossings are marked extremely clearly and it's obvious to all that you should never stop on the tracks.

 

[railiner]

My point was it is no different from Amtrak doing 79 just few miles to the west, which though admittedly is not through as dense a population but still with quite dense grade crossings in some stretches.

Agreed. But Amtrak (and Tri Rail, and CSX) have had their share of grade crossings accidents, as well.

 

[railiner]

In the meantime, why can't vehicles just not stop on the tracks, or if they must cross like the fire truck, not do so until it's confirmed clear in both directions?

Yes, why can’t they?
The sad fact is that some don’t, and that’s the problem, that all the warning devices possible, still can’t prevent them. Only a fool-proof barrier, or grade separation can…

 

[TrackWalker]

Just looking at google earth and noticed that within a mile and a half stretch of track in both directions from the accident there are about 10 road crossings in total. This one appears to be the only one without four quadrant protection.

 

[MARC Rider]

It seems that they should eliminate the grade crossings, just like they did in the NEC back in the late 1970s. But we shall see who's going to pony up the ca$h to do that -- Brightline? FEC? The Florida taxpayers? The Feds? I'm not sure who paid for the elimination of grade crossings (mostly road bridges) on the NEC, but I think Federal money was involved. Might be different here, as FEC is a private for-profit RR, whereas the NEC by then was owned by Amtrak. And the political climate is way different.

 

[tgstubbs1]

The truck was most likely stopped for the freight train and once it cleared the crossing the truck proceeded to go around the gates. Apparently it never occurred to the driver that the gates did not go up because another train was approaching.

I watched the video several times, trying to see how this happened. It looks like the Fire truck doesn't start moving until the train is getting pretty close, maybe a block away. Then it moves across the tracks, but it doesn't look like the truck is moving very fast so I don't think the driver even noticed as the train was bearing down on them.

 

[alanh]

I'm certain they never saw the second train, at least until it was too late. They just waited for the freight to clear the crossing and tried to save a few seconds by not waiting for the gates to go up.

 

[poncho]

I'm curious about all the very ambitious grade separation projects that railroads built in cities all across the US in the 1900s-1930s. These were typically tackling many grade crossings as one large project. Who paid? How did they build them while maintaining service on the tracks?

I know Caltrain has been doing many of these grade separations too over the last 30 years. They aren't cheap.

The challenge of course in Florida is you really can't go down due to water table and going up conflicts with existing bridges and overpasses. Even the elevated track into MiamiCentral has to dive down pretty quickly just north of the station to make it under the east-west elevated freeway.

 

[Qapla]

The sad fact is that some don’t, and that’s the problem, that all the warning devices possible, still can’t prevent them. Only a fool-proof barrier, or grade separation can…

Just looking at google earth and noticed that within a mile and a half stretch of track in both directions from the accident there are about 10 road crossings in total. This one appears to be the only one without four quadrant protection.

It seems that they should eliminate the grade crossings,

It's interesting that so much fuss is made about train grade crossings since they are not as prevalent as all the other grade crossings. I'm sure if you were to check, you would discover that the other grade crossings have many more incidents of crashes and collisions that the train grade crossings - yet no one is clamoring to remove those grade crossings.

These other grade crossings often have the latest in control technology, vast amounts of signage, warning and flashing lights as well as fines for disregarding them. In 2022, there were approximately 42,514 total traffic fatalities in the US, around 12,000 of these fatalities happened at these other grade crossings.

In Florida alone, there were about 39,445 grade crossing accidents that were not at train crossings.

What grade crossings are these ... well, most often they are called intersections. Many people seem to forget that two roads crossing with traffic lights or stop signs are, in fact, grade crossings. Intersections come in various forms—four-way stops, roundabouts, T-junctions, and more and according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 36% of all crashes happen at intersections.

What is the number 1 cause of accidents in an intersection?

Failing to stop at a red light, trying to run a yellow light, and not yielding the right of way to another driver are some of the most common causes of intersection accidents.

Since way more people are injured and killed at vehicle grade crossings (intersections) that do at train grade crossings, why aren't people demanding that all intersections be replaced with one of the roads raised above the other.

The fact is, eliminating all grade crossing is too costly and not always practical. However, people obeying the laws, stopping for red lights and train signals and obeying the barricades are practical ... and possible - and way cheaper that trying to eliminate all grade crossings.

 

[poncho]

It's interesting that so much fuss is made about train grade crossings since they are not as prevalent as all the other grade crossings. I'm sure if you were to check, you would discover that the other grade crossings have many more incidents of crashes and collisions that the train grade crossings - yet no one is clamoring to remove those grade crossings.

These other grade crossings often have the latest in control technology, vast amounts of signage, warning and flashing lights as well as fines for disregarding them. In 2022, there were approximately 42,514 total traffic fatalities in the US, around 12,000 of these fatalities happened at these other grade crossings.

In Florida alone, there were about 39,445 grade crossing accidents that were not at train crossings.

What grade crossings are these ... well, most often they are called intersections. Many people seem to forget that two roads crossing with traffic lights or stop signs are, in fact, grade crossings. Intersections come in various forms—four-way stops, roundabouts, T-junctions, and more and according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 36% of all crashes happen at intersections.

What is the number 1 cause of accidents in an intersection?

Failing to stop at a red light, trying to run a yellow light, and not yielding the right of way to another driver are some of the most common causes of intersection accidents.

Since way more people are injured and killed at vehicle grade crossings (intersections) that do at train grade crossings, why aren't people demanding that all intersections be replaced with one of the roads raised above the other.

The fact is, eliminating all grade crossing is too costly and not always practical. However, people obeying the laws, stopping for red lights and train signals and obeying the barricades are practical ... and possible - and way cheaper that trying to eliminate all grade crossings.

Florida is also notoriously horrific for incompetent and reckless driving which your stats show.

I will never forget visiting Miami and waiting at a stoplight in a rental car and witnessing a white Yukon SUV come from behind, cross into the other direction of traffic to overtake us waiting and blow through the stoplight, miraculously not hitting anyone. These were two major streets, and given its Florida, that mean high speed stroads.

I'm with you it's expensive but you are dealing with a population that is largely incompetent behind the wheel that doesn't respect basic traffic laws or commonsense behind the wheel. What's the solution, keep having weekly crashes of clueless drivers into trains?

 

[jis]

To provide a perspective we have regular crashes on I-95 shutting down the highway sometimes several times a week, and at least one or more involving fatality every month, just in Brevard County, and all that seems to be treated with a shrug as par for the course. It is pretty weird.

 

[railiner]

It's interesting that so much fuss is made about train grade crossings since they are not as prevalent as all the other grade crossings. I'm sure if you were to check, you would discover that the other grade crossings have many more incidents of crashes and collisions that the train grade crossings - yet no one is clamoring to remove those grade crossings.

These other grade crossings often have the latest in control technology, vast amounts of signage, warning and flashing lights as well as fines for disregarding them. In 2022, there were approximately 42,514 total traffic fatalities in the US, around 12,000 of these fatalities happened at these other grade crossings.

In Florida alone, there were about 39,445 grade crossing accidents that were not at train crossings.

What grade crossings are these ... well, most often they are called intersections. Many people seem to forget that two roads crossing with traffic lights or stop signs are, in fact, grade crossings. Intersections come in various forms—four-way stops, roundabouts, T-junctions, and more and according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 36% of all crashes happen at intersections.

What is the number 1 cause of accidents in an intersection?

Failing to stop at a red light, trying to run a yellow light, and not yielding the right of way to another driver are some of the most common causes of intersection accidents.

Since way more people are injured and killed at vehicle grade crossings (intersections) that do at train grade crossings, why aren't people demanding that all intersections be replaced with one of the roads raised above the other.

The fact is, eliminating all grade crossing is too costly and not always practical. However, people obeying the laws, stopping for red lights and train signals and obeying the barricades are practical ... and possible - and way cheaper that trying to eliminate all grade

I don’t think comparing road intersections with road crossings of railroads is a valid comparison.
First of all, the train almost always has the right of way.
Secondly, a train cannot take evasive action if a vehicle encroaches its way, unlike a vehicle by another vehicle.

 

[Stevenz]

I would bet money that 90% of grade separation projects were for the purpose of expediting automobile traffic, not train traffic or safety. That’s the only way to justify the expense to the driving public. Other benefits are ancillary.

As to the cost, highly individualist American culture does not put a high value on public goods, in contrast to Europe, and as Asian cultures derive from a completely different intellectual tradition, they have a high degree of “otherness”. (I can’t think of a better word at the moment.). So Americans are tacitly willing to bear costs other than monetary. Thus, an individual feels the “right” to cross a railroad track and lets others bear the cost.

 

[poncho]

I would bet money that 90% of grade separation projects were for the purpose of expediting automobile traffic, not train traffic or safety. That’s the only way to justify the expense to the driving public. Other benefits are ancillary.

As to the cost, highly individualist American culture does not put a high value on public goods, in contrast to Europe, and as Asian cultures derive from a completely different intellectual tradition, they have a high degree of “otherness”. (I can’t think of a better word at the moment.). So Americans are tacitly willing to bear costs other than monetary. Thus, an individual feels the “right” to cross a railroad track and lets others bear the cost.

On that last point, I'd say Americans actually do value public goods, they'll just never admit it. Its very "American" to assume infrastructure and govt services <i>they</i> use just fell out of the sky or is somehow the free market, roads in particular. The ignorance is astounding. Its a huge peeve of mine especially with conservatives (and I'd say I lean more to the right politically).

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I'm curious about all the very ambitious grade separation projects that railroads built in cities all across the US in the 1900s-1930s. These were typically tackling many grade crossings as one large project. Who paid? How did they build them while maintaining service on the tracks?

To the best of my knowledge, in Chicago at least, the City of Chicago mandated it (it being grade separation - mostly viaducts) and forced the RR's to pay for it.

 

[tgstubbs1]

In the meantime, why can't vehicles just not stop on the tracks, or if they must cross like the fire truck, not do so until it's confirmed clear in both directions?

In Taiwan, the RR crossings are marked extremely clearly and it's obvious to all that you should never stop on the tracks.

I wonder how much a rail crossing warning setup like the one in Taiwan costs? I don't know if they include the more difficult to bypass crossing arms or not, but they use a large amount of signage and lights.