Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2023 Q4

[Anderson]

It's really dissapointing that Brightline doesn't understand that people want to look out the windows. You can wrap trains all you want but cut out the windows - it's super easy to do!

Brightline is banking that with trains slam full, folks who would pass on the train over that will cost them less revenue than the wrap nets them.

That said, if/when they get longer trains they should at least guarantee an unobstructed view in Premium...

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Brightline is banking that with trains slam full, folks who would pass on the train over that will cost them less revenue than the wrap nets them.

That said, if/when they get longer trains they should at least guarantee an unobstructed view in Premium...

Why should it be different in Premium vs. Coach and why should it be different with longer trains?

 

[Anderson]

Why should it be different in Premium vs. Coach and why should it be different with longer trains?

(1) Because of how much money folks are throwing at the problem.
(2) Longer train-->More space. At (say) 7 cars, you'd have 6 cars (plus the locomotives) for wrapping, so you can sell what would be a "full billboard" for now and still have space to spare.

 

[Douglas Dunker]

So far they have tended to wrap entire sets but there are a few examples were they wrapped a single car. I don;t think there is any particular method other than how much they are paid 9or decide to spend themselves) for the specific advertisement.

I personally do not like wraps where the windows are covered. I guess they imported the guy at Amtrak who did this to the Acelas at one time and argued that no one looks out of the windows anyway. Idiocy has no bounds.

Personally, I ride trains to see scenery I would otherwise miss. Same reason I ride local transit buses in new cities I visit. Wrapping the vehicle totally defeats the purpose of installing windows.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

(1) Because of how much money folks are throwing at the problem.
(2) Longer train-->More space. At (say) 7 cars, you'd have 6 cars (plus the locomotives) for wrapping, so you can sell what would be a "full billboard" for now and still have space to spare.

I honestly don't understand the logic of either of those points. It's either a customer experience issue or it's not. If it is, then it should be fixed for ALL passengers - not 1st class only. The longer train doesn't make a difference, I'm sure they are selling it as a "Full Train Wrap" not a "5-car wrap."

The advertisers wouldn't care if the windows were cut out... there is an easy solution to this. It just needs people who actually ride the trains working for the company so they understand the issues.

 

[jis]

It is entirely possible that as Brightline becomes bigger it will slowly become more like Amtrak. I hope it does not, but it is certainly a distinct possibility unfortunately.

 

[bonzoesc]

The advertisers wouldn't care if the windows were cut out... there is an easy solution to this. It just needs people who actually ride the trains working for the company so they understand the issues.

That doesn't match my experience working with people in marketing and advertising, they absolutely care if they can't see their branding full bleed on the entire side of the wagon.

Going from pictures, while the "Visit Orlando" wrap does seem like they worked closely with Brightline to keep the diagonal accent band in the middle, cutting out the windows would delete a bunch of the other graphics representing attractions towards the ends of the wagon.

It is entirely possible that as Brightline becomes bigger it will slowly become more like Amtrak. I hope it does not, but it is certainly a distinct possibility unfortunately.

I'm not sure I see this happening, especially once Tri-Rail starts serving the FEC corridor. Just going by the October 2023 numbers, the South Florida service was not quite a third of their revenue, and that's much cheaper revenue for them to book too (in terms of fuel burn, labor, and beverages for first class).

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It is entirely possible that as Brightline becomes bigger it will slowly become more like Amtrak. I hope it does not, but it is certainly a distinct possibility unfortunately.

I've come to the conclusion that passenger railroads are just an odd bunch. Amtrak, VIA, Alaska RR and Brightline all have some really weird quirks when it comes to customer service/experiences. (Pullman Rail Journeys / Iowa Pacific as well when they were around). While I sincerely want Brightline to succeed, the kindergarten walks, ticket ordering system (online, app or in station.. it's all bad in my experience), fully wrapped windows, and odd customer service issues when things go wrong are all noticeable.

That doesn't match my experience working with people in marketing and advertising, they absolutely care if they can't see their branding full bleed on the entire side of the wagon.

Interesting... do you have lots of experience working with transit companies in the USA? The fact that you call them wagons makes me think you might be talking from an international perspective. I've seen plenty of transit wraps with windows cut out - New York City being the most recent.

 

[jis]

Amtrak actually did evolve from full wraps to windows cut out on Acelas.

Well passengers, who are the primary providers of revenue that is by far much greater than the pittance that is collected from wrap advertisements prefer windows cutout, and it is time that they pulled their heft and put the relatively low return advertisers in their place IMHO. It is a different case for the LRTs and what not whose ticket revenues may not be that high making the advertises revenue quite significant.

 

[cirdan]

It is a different case for the LRTs and what not whose ticket revenues may not be that high making the advertises revenue quite significant.

I don't know what the Brightline warp is like when viewed from inside, but some LRTs these days have quite good wraps that do not significantly lessen the viewing experience from inside while still being visible from outside.

 

[user 1215]

It's really dissapointing that Brightline doesn't understand that people want to look out the windows. You can wrap trains all you want but cut out the windows - it's super easy to do!

Makes you wonder which pays more? Ad revenue or passenger revenue? Hey empty trains make cool moving billboards.

 

[Anderson]

Makes you wonder which pays more? Ad revenue or passenger revenue? Hey empty trains make cool moving billboards.

Also, what do people see themselves as paying for? A person regularly commuting FLL-MIA probably doesn't care what the back of a bunch of buildings look like.

If Brightline would lose $1m in revenue (say, 40k tix in SF) per year *and send those seats out empty* but the wrap generates $3m, it is rational for them to do it. But if someone else will fill that seat in place of a disgruntled railfan as well?

Edit: Also, don't forget how many passenger trains, circa 1960, were paid for by mail/express shipments. Your question has validity, yes, but be careful...you might not like the answer you get.

 

[joelkfla]

I don't know what the Brightline warp is like when viewed from inside, but some LRTs these days have quite good wraps that do not significantly lessen the viewing experience from inside while still being visible from outside.

They looked pretty bad looking out on a YouTube video. But sometimes wraps look worse thru a camera than in person; that's true of the wraps on Disney Skyliner cabins. Nevertheless, I always wait for an unwrapped cabin when riding the Skyliner.

 

[jis]

Subscription may be needed to read the whole article, but the very useful diagram can be seen without subscription...

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2023/11/23/fdot-sunshine-corridor-sunrail-brightline.html

 

[crescent-zephyr]

They looked pretty bad looking out on a YouTube video. But sometimes wraps look worse thru a camera than in person; that's true of the wraps on Disney Skyliner cabins. Nevertheless, I always wait for an unwrapped cabin when riding the Skyliner.

I can confirm they are pretty bad in my personal experience - they actually gave me a really bad headache. While it's a different situation (slower speed, less of a travel time) the Disney Skyliner wraps have never given me a headache.

If Brightline would lose $1m in revenue (say, 40k tix in SF) per year *and send those seats out empty* but the wrap generates $3m, it is rational for them to do it. But if someone else will fill that seat in place of a disgruntled railfan as well?

Well first of all... when my company rents billboards we pay like $500-700 per month. I can't imagine this being worth more than $10k per month and that seems high for what you get comparatively. So... $120k per train in a year is what we are probably talking about.

Do you honestly believe that only railfans care about looking out the window when riding a train?

 

[Anderson]

I can confirm they are pretty bad in my personal experience - they actually gave me a really bad headache. While it's a different situation (slower speed, less of a travel time) the Disney Skyliner wraps have never given me a headache.


Well first of all... when my company rents billboards we pay like $500-700 per month. I can't imagine this being worth more than $10k per month and that seems high for what you get comparatively. So... $120k per train in a year is what we are probably talking about.

Do you honestly believe that only railfans care about looking out the window when riding a train?

As I said before, it really depends on the market. Regular commuters seeing the back side of warehouses probably don't care much. Tourists going to Orlando probably do. Business travelers who use the train because it's cheaper to fly into MCO and then take the train than to fly into FLL/MIA this week? Eh... *shrugs*

Also, $120k/train per year would still be $1.2m/yr...

 

[cirdan]

Makes you wonder which pays more? Ad revenue or passenger revenue? Hey empty trains make cool moving billboards.

Sadly, when it comes to commuter and LRT, there are examples where the subsidy is greater than the ticket revenue.

This can cultivate the mindset that pleasing politicians is more important than pleasing customers.

Add advertisers into the mix and passengers find themselves pushed down to third priority.

 

[jis]

Sadly, when it comes to commuter and LRT, there are examples where the subsidy is greater than the ticket revenue.

This can cultivate the mindset that pleasing politicians is more important than pleasing customers.

Add advertisers into the mix and passengers find themselves pushed down to third priority.

Part of the problem in the US is that many of the smaller transit systems are run as politician's and bureaucrat's hobby, and the passengers are just incidental inconvenience one has to suffer.

 

[cirdan]

Part of the problem in the US is that many of the smaller transit systems are run as politician's and bureaucrat's hobby, and the passengers are just incidental inconvenience one has to suffer.

This is universal, not just in the US.

When i was living in Switzerland an SBB employee once joked that "our trains could be even more punctual if it wasn't for all these passengers".

At least I hope he was joking.

 

[bonzoesc]

This is universal, not just in the US.

When i was living in Switzerland an SBB employee once joked that "our trains could be even more punctual if it wasn't for all these passengers".

At least I hope he was joking.

I believe that "Clerks" refrain. My DB Regio experience above was definitely affected by how long it took to get an extra hundred sweaty nerds with too much baggage on the train.

 

[jis]

I believe that "Clerks" refrain. My DB Regio experience above was definitely affected by how long it took to get an extra hundred sweaty nerds with too much baggage on the train.

Everything involves tradeoffs. The important question is what is the "telos" of the outfit. For passenger railways it has got to be "carrying passengers in a way that is convenient for the passengers", as opposed to convenient for the railway. When tradeoff decisions are made they need to be made within the confines of the core purpose of the outfit, not to make life more comfortable for those operating it alone.

 

[west point]

Everything involves tradeoffs. The important question is what is the "telos" of the outfit. For passenger railways it has got to be "carrying passengers in a way that is convenient for the passengers", as opposed to convenient for the railway.

That is a very strong argument. The Crescent schedule is certainly not conducive for passengers especially north of BHM. Atlanta is just plain terrible. Southbound ATL is a little late but the need to get the Empire train 280's only connections to the SE all way to NOL. The northbound needs to leave NOL at 0600. The present #20's schedule does not allow any connections to even Albany . A revised 20 schedule tightened up about 30 minutes would allow connections to the LSL

 

[user 1215]

That is a very strong argument. The Crescent schedule is certainly not conducive for passengers especially north of BHM. Atlanta is just plain terrible. Southbound ATL is a little late but the need to get the Empire train 280's only connections to the SE all way to NOL. The northbound needs to leave NOL at 0600. The present #20's schedule does not allow any connections to even Albany . A revised 20 schedule tightened up about 30 minutes would allow connections to the LSL

That's the problem with most long distance trains. Not enough demand to justify more than one train per day for most routes, so, by definition, many places will be served at horrible times. I wish the Silver Star would run 6 hours ahead of the Meteor to get some variety in the overnight schedules.

I really don't see Brightline to carry many people from Miami to Tampa. It'll mostly be MIA-MCO, and MCO-TPA or points between. It just won't make sense to take a 5-6 hours train journey when you can drive that in less than 4 1/2 hours.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

That's the problem with most long distance trains. Not enough demand to justify more than one train per day for most routes, so, by definition, many places will be served at horrible times.

Not sure about the demand, it seem pretty strong in other countries. California is doing pretty good with the number of trains, PNW just added another round trip. I get a three night train running three times a week is not able to prove demand. But have we ever tried?

I wish the Silver Star would run 6 hours ahead of the Meteor to get some variety in the overnight schedules.

Can’t disagree.

I really don't see Brightline to carry many people from Miami to Tampa. It'll mostly be MIA-MCO, and MCO-TPA or points between. It just won't make sense to take a 5-6 hours train journey when you can drive that in less than 4 1/2 hours.

I drive for a living, I would not want to drive my automobile for 4 1/2 hours unless there a good reason to. If there is a walkable city or transit where I am going. I am not going to subject myself to the drive to get there. Yes, there a shortage of walkable communities, but there are communities that get it too. With more features getting add ever month. New train station’s built for transit, bikes, pedestrians. We as a society are moving to better connectivity. One problem at a time.

 

[bonzoesc]

I really don't see Brightline to carry many people from Miami to Tampa. It'll mostly be MIA-MCO, and MCO-TPA or points between. It just won't make sense to take a 5-6 hours train journey when you can drive that in less than 4 1/2 hours.

It really depends on what your mobility story is at the destination, and why you're going.

My original Brightline to MCO trip at the beginning of September 2023 (which ended up on AA because of the opening delay being pushed back twice) would've been either a $2.25 or a $20 ride to downtown Miami, a $158 round-trip to Orlando, and a $40 ride to the Bonnet Creek area for a conference. Driving would've been 234mi, or about $25.74 in my 2012 Mustang V6, plus $20/day parking; cheaper for the four nights we were there, especially if my friend paid for gas, or if we wanted to go other places in the Orlando area sure. (Aside: we did rent a car for a day to try and fail to go to Taste of Chengdu, and did go to the excellent Chuan Lu Garden instead.)

I did finally take it at the beginning of November, booking first class, working during the ride, and renting a car at MCO, for a two-day work meeting in Melbourne. I sat down and did the math on this today, and for my situation (working hourly, renting an EV, and charging it at my parents' in exchange for buying them dinner I'd buy them anyways), Brightline coach is cheaper for a four-day trip, and first class is still cheaper on a two-day trip.

I did enjoy some intangible benefits, like supporting rail travel, minimizing exposure to South Florida traffic, a multiple-day test drive of a car that's not eleven years old, and lots of whiskey on the ride back south too.

For grins, I priced out flying AA too, and it's worse any way you slice it, because the flight isn't long enough for me to get anything done, and basic economy a month out isn't significantly cheaper than Brightline first.

The costs do get worse as soon as you have multiple people and aren't billing hours, but that's where cars start to shine traditionally anyways. On the flipmode, I'm planning a trip in a couple weeks driving north with someone, she returns to go back to work, and I stay another couple days (boat parade!) and take the train back.