Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[jis]

They also considerably upgraded their Select offering from what it has been

http://image.guest.gobrightline.com/lib/fe5f15707c62007e741c/m/1/070bf01f-8b66-4fa6-b3b6-a22fc2d23268.png?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BL-NewSelect-2018August24&utm_content=amenities&blid=cpteyI/ecEyKD2LO3VM6Ow

 

[cpotisch]

I just got an email that they are introducing a new class: SmartPLUS. It looks exactly like Smart, except that you get a free snack and drink.

Is it much pricier than Smart?

 

[jis]

One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select

A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.

Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.

 

[cpotisch]

One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select

A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.

Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.

I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.

 

[jis]

Too much baseless armchair quarterbacking eh? What do you exactly know about the business models and imperatives under which Brightline operates, so as to feel empowered to use words like "dumb" to describe their marketing and management decisions, and how many for profit corporations in the hospitality and transportation business have your run to date? None, right?

How would you know what price is absurd? If the market bears it why is it absurd? isn't that how pricing is supposed to work?

 

[user 1215]

You expect operating losses in the beginning to attract market share. The fact that they are able to raise the prices seems very promising. If they weren't meeting ridership numbers, they wouldn't be raising the prices.

I've always measured the value of something generally by how long it takes to make the money back spent on such a product. $45 for a 1 hour ride is appropriate for executives, experienced trade professionals, etc. $25 for the same ride is appropriate for a younger family crowd - maybe an income around $50k/yr.

For the rest of us looking for real value Tri-Rail is available.

 

[bretton88]

One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select

A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.

Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.

I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.

What Brightline is doing is exactly how you make a profit. You add these amenities to attract the premium consumer, where most of the transportation profit is.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

cpotisch--

Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"

In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.

Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....

)

 

[MARC Rider]

cpotisch--

Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"

In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.

Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....

)

Heh, a couple of years ago, I remember certain people riding MARC, the Baltimore light rail. and even (gasp!) the Wahington Metro "just for fun."

 

[chrsjrcj]

One way fares in November weekday are $25, $30 and $45 respectively - Smart, Smartplus, Select

A drink and a snack bought a-la-carte costs more than $5.

Also new Select makes parking free in Brightline parking structures, and adds a substantial buffet spread in the Select Lounge, among other things.

I personally find it a bit dumb that one of Brightline's main focuses seems to be to offering over the top, expensive facilities with free buffets and snacks and such. All that stuff is obviously very nice to have, but it does mean that they're charging pretty absurd prices for such a short ride. I just feel like at this stage it makes more sense to either offer cheaper fares to get more people interested, or to spend that money on expanding the service itself. Just my opinion.

Welcome to private sector vs. public sector transportation.

In reality, Brightline is a 66 mile horizontal elevator connecting properties in Miami and West Palm (and soon a commercial property in Fort Lauderdale).

 

[chrsjrcj]

If one can only do Brightline one-way, I'd recommend boarding in West Palm Beach, riding to Miami, take Metrorail to Miami Airport (hope you get one of the new cars, if not, you'll feel like you need to take a shower), then take Tri-Rail to West Palm Beach. AlternativeIly, you can do the reverse (Tri-Rail to Miami and Brightline back). I've done both variants, and didn't really see any pros or cons to one way vs the other.

In West Palm Beach, there is a free trolley that runs from the Tri-Rail station (it boards on the eastside of the station, along Tamarind Ave) to Clematis Street which is a block away from the Brightline station. Alternatively, you can walk along Datura Street. It's about a 10 minute walk between the two stations, but there are no shade trees, so if it's hot you will be drenched in sweat (speaking from experience)!

You can park at the West Palm Beach Tri-Rail station, since it is free. If you buy a Select ticket on Brightline, parking is free in their garage.

 

[Anderson]

cpotisch--

Also, remember where Brightline is--even if they are basically conducting an experiment to see if they can get the business travelers off the highway, they are definitely assured of having a steady stream of tourists trying it out. They may be riding it only once or twice, but there will be others taking their place when they go back home. And then they tell their friends--"When you go down to Florida next winter, try that Brightline--it was lots of fun. A bit expensive, but, hey, you're on vacation down there, right? We even splurged for the Select category, and had a lounge to sit in and a buffet set out for us!"

In other words, it's a novelty--something you do on a trip for fun and the experience--and people will pay extra for that.

Not like up here--I mean, who on earth would say "Let's ride NJ Transit just for fun?" (Oh, wait a minute....there are those Gathering people....

)

Heh, a couple of years ago, I remember certain people riding MARC, the Baltimore light rail. and even (gasp!) the Wahington Metro "just for fun."

Hey, at least with the DC Metro you get an adrenaline rush of "Will Metro catch fire?" thrown in!

 

[jis]

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-considers-adding-treasure-coast-stop/uYYTjEw1dxa0yXKgW18sjI

The Brightline rail service is considering one or more stops in the Treasure Coast, a region whose politicians have sought to stop the train from speeding through their turf en route to Orlando. Brightline has asked city managers in Stuart, Fort Pierce, Vero Beach and Sebastian to suggest possible locations for train stations, said Russell Roberts, Brightline’s vice president of government affairs.[/url]

So they are starting the process that they went through with Brevard County 18 months back. We almost have a final site selection completed.

 

[user 1215]

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/brightline-considers-adding-treasure-coast-stop/uYYTjEw1dxa0yXKgW18sjI

The Brightline rail service is considering one or more stops in the Treasure Coast, a region whose politicians have sought to stop the train from speeding through their turf en route to Orlando. Brightline has asked city managers in Stuart, Fort Pierce, Vero Beach and Sebastian to suggest possible locations for train stations, said Russell Roberts, Brightline’s vice president of government affairs.[/url]

So they are starting the process that they went through with Brevard County 18 months back. We almost have a final site selection completed.

They oughtta just let those counties watch Briteline speed through.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Stuart is (in my opinion) the most appealing city that the FEC travels through, and may be the most successful initially. Fort Pierce is centrally located, but not a very appealing city (suburbs have really won out in St. Lucie County). I understand that Fort Pierce has been somewhat warm toward Brightline, and a Brightline stop here may spark a rejuvenation for the city, but it's also a long term commitment and risk that I'm not sure a private company would be willing to take.

 

[jis]

Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.

 

[bretton88]

Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.

Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.

 

[Anderson]

Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.

Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.

I think the key there is that the property is basically "on-property" at the airport. There's growth and development to be had in that part of Orlando (Lake Nona is a growing area), but they don't own the right chunks of land. I think flight paths might also be at issue for part of the land in question...a 4-5 story station building/parking complex is a far cry from a major condo/office complex.

 

[cirdan]

Opportunities for real estate development around the station would be a major consideration in their choice, as has been the case in Brevard County, and of course at the three location where they already have stations. The glaring exception being Orlando which they consider mostly as an O/D for increasing business along the East Coast and eventually Tampa apparently. I have never heard of them talking about real estate development in Orlando, maybe because they don't see a lucrative opportunity in that overpriced market at this time.

Probably also because Brightline will just be skimming Orlando and serving the airport. The opportunity for redevelopment is much less with the way they plan to serve Orlando.

Obviously they can't develop anything inside the airport as the airport owns that land and won't be selling it.

But it might just theoretically be imagineable that at some point in the future tehy will open a second station in Orlando (or at least the Orlano metroplex), maybe as part of the Tampa extension.

If I were Brightline, i would be keeping the proposed location secret so I can buy the land before the news sends land value skyrocketing.

I'm sure Brightline has got all the options mapped out and knows which are worth pursuing and which are not..

 

[JRR]

A little off topic, but yesterday evening, we were at the light on Dixie Hwy. in Boca Raton, waiting to make a turn West onto Palmetto Park Blvd., when the train signals started flashing and the gates came down, all of a sudden a car coming south on Dixie Hwy. traveling fast went through the redlight on Dixie, made a right onto Palmetto Park, and crashed through the lowered gate. Surprisingly, the gate didn't break but wobbled upwards and then came back down. Within seconds, the Brightline train roared through on it's northward trip to West Palm.

Incredible how stupid some people are!

 

[Anderson]

So, apparently while I was out of town Brightline finally got approval on the $1.75bn bond issue. With a little bit of luck, that will get construction moving on the Orlando segment. The usual back-and-forth seems to have ensued over Q1 ridership (I really want to see June's ridership/revenue numbers more than Q2 as a whole, since Q1 was "sandbagged" both by losing the first chunk of January to not-yet-started service and by the fact that Miami service didn't start until May).


Links:

https://www.google.com/search?q=brightline+ridership&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0xKeL56HdAhXD41MKHfWfDwIQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=732

https://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/business/bond-hearing-brightline-executives-opponents-paint-vastly-different-pictures/SySqVY0ruJ5OUInRKBQ8eN/

 

[jis]

Locally I am hearing that it will take at least six months to get supplies ordered and delivered. Any visible construction in Brevard County will start early next year. That is the scuttlebutt from folks at FECRS who seem to be well connected with FECR folks.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Jis, assuming the FO relocation is nearly complete and the contractor is ready, they should be able to immediately begin earthwork to prepare the roadbed for the second track and lay down concrete ties soon after. They have Rocla in Ft Pierce that I am sure can begin producing concrete ties on short notice since that plant was built mainly for AAF. I can see the CWR and switch components taking longer to receive. I would think the longest lead time items would be the signal system and the bridge components for the two new bridge structures over waterways on the FECR. Of course the maintenance facility at MCO is a whole different matter!

I have read that they just now awarded the contract for railway construction in the past few weeks. I think this was for the FECR segment, not the new Orlando section. That section will be put out for bid this month. So part of the delay is that they did/do not have a construction company lined up. It always takes time for the contractor to hire people and begin mobilization. I recall the GOAA May 2018 meeting presentation said major work on phase 2 would begin no sooner than October 2018, if things went smoothly.

Edit: a lot of good updated information can be found here in the attached pdf file from the FDFC Meeting packet.pab_docs.pdf

 

[Anderson]

The delay in rounding up a contractor isn't a surprise...I don't think too many folks would have wanted to bid on a contract that would be contingent on a potentially dicey bond approval process. I suspect that /some/ on-the-ground work can begin (e.g. roadbed work, possibly some preparation along SR528, etc.) but a bunch will take a few months to "spool up".

 

[jis]

I was mainly referring to work along FECR. I have no idea what the situation is along 528. That is in the far other corner of Brevard County, and it is a big county. FECR is less than 5 miles from my place.