Bus drivers union calls Denver Union Station a "hellhole."

[Lonnie]

A few days ago we took a break in the Denver station while headed for Chicago in the CZ. While there were some characters in the area between the platforms and the station whom we chose to avoid, we found the hustle and bustle inside to be a welcome change from the desolation and abandonment one finds in so many current or formerly glorious stations like the tragedy of Buffalo's Central Terminal. However, we noticed that about a third of the post-Thanksgiving crowd in there were not wearing masks at all, so we made a quick exit.

 

[F900ElCapitan]

From what I’ve seen at DUS, I’ll take the issues there and around the station over many others including Seattle, Portland, St. Paul, Los Angeles, Dallas, St. Louis, San Antonio, and a number of other stations that I‘ve visited. I actually felt quite safe the times I’ve been there.

 

[KeepItGoing]

In November I took a bus to DUS. It let me out at the very end of the bus area, so I had to walk the whole length of it. It is long! I am recovering from an illness that has created a lot of fatigue for me, so the unexpected walk was quite unwelcome, and yes, it wasn't a really comfortable place.

Worse, though, was that when I wanted to leave the bus area and go up a level to the platforms, the elevator was broken, so I had to go up some long stairs. Then it wasn't clear how to get to the Amtrak track; I worried a while before I figured out that the tracks ended here so I could walk around them.

I guess I never made it into the station itself.

So overall I was uncomfortable, but I never felt really unsafe.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.

Oh joy, this might be getting out of hand.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Per a conductor on the CZ, the situation on the platforms is getting worse day by day. Someone recently pepper sprayed the line of passengers waiting to board.

 

[basketmaker]

Not to quibble, but the trains I saw in Denver looked more like heavy commuter rail, especially since the Hyundai Rotem cars are nearly identical to the Silverliner Vs used by SEPTA in Philadelphia for its commuter rail system.

The "letter" trains like the "A-train" 25 miles to the airport are heavy rail and electrified. There is a fairly extensive light rail system also.

 

[basketmaker]

So the armed security guard doesn’t feel safe?

So what happened to the transit police?

Or was the I imagining that the guys checking tickets and hanging out at the Denver Union Station were transit police to begin with?

Drug user are using there products in public space more often, so when they OD they can be spotted and helped.

Seems to be a national problem, not just in Denver.

As for the armed guard not feeling safe... Life in prison for man who shot and killed RTD security guard

 

[jis]

More on the bad situation at Denver Union Station Bus Concourse.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/r...feel-safety-at-risk-when-using-rtd/ar-AARxmo0

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Too many lower payed security guards, and not enough transit police. Oh wait the transit police have limited powers.

Sorry if the armed security guards can not legally do anything, the transit police are legally prevented from doing anything. So why not contact out to Denver Police Department for a officer. One person on duty 24/7 required 5 people to fill that slot. You team the Denver police officer with a transit police officer and plant them at station. Problem immediately gets better. Simple solution.

 

[jis]

Too many lower payed security guards, and not enough transit police. Oh wait the transit police have limited powers.

Sorry if the armed security guards can not legally do anything, the transit police are legally prevented from doing anything. So why not contact out to Denver Police Department for a officer. One person on duty 24/7 required 5 people to fill that slot. You team the Denver police officer with a transit police officer and plant them at station. Problem immediately gets better. Simple solution.

My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.

Or just a small elephant like the Denver Police Union feeling threaten by Transit Police. That why my solution was a single Denver Police officer 24/7. I would think renting a PD officer is very expensive in the Denver Metro. By matching them with a transit officer maybe the Police Union will get enough feedback to change the restrictions on the transit police.

 

[Bob Dylan]

My suspicion is that there is big elephant of some internecine politics between/among who not clear to me, is preventing a rational approach to solving this problem. Seems like what has been done so far is rearranging deck chairs instead of steering the ship.

This is happening in lots of Cities, it seems to have started with San Francisco and spread all over as local politicians in "Woke Cities" took over Micro Managing Law Enforcement.

Has there ever been a more poorly named Political idea than " Defund the Police??"

Disclaimer: Better Slogan: "Reform the Police!", it's badly needed in most Cities!

 

[jis]

BTW, trying to steer this back to the Amtrak side of things, a few people asked me whether one has to go through the bus station to get to the LRT station. The answer is no. If you wish to get from an Amtrak train or RTD Line A Airport, you can walk on the surface to the LRT station and need not go into the "hell hole" alluded to here. Although things do leak out fro the subsurface bus facility to the surface and there have been a few spillover problems on the surface too.

BTW if you wish to avoid that entire area you can take the downtown circulator bus from one block away from the Amtrak side all the way to the LRT station too.

 

[sttom]

This is happening in lots of Cities, it seems to have started with San Francisco and spread all over as local politicians in "Woke Cities" took over Micro Managing Law Enforcement.

Has there ever been a more poorly named Political idea than " Defund the Police??"

Disclaimer: Better Slogan: "Reform the Police!", it's badly needed in most Cities!

The defund the police slogan comes from the notion that you need to demand something extreme to get something more workable. The actual goal is to reform the police, effectively speaking but they think you need to demand the abolition of policing to get real reforms. There are police abolitionists in the world, but most at least state they want reforms but use an inflammatory rhetoric to get noticed. The issue being that if you get too crazy, you get ignored anyways. Its kind of the same deal with some people advocating for public transit think of any rail improvement short of a 225 mph high speed line is a waste of money.

The issue I have is why we even need transit police in the first place. They just seem to be a weird inefficiency in government that we have just accepted as being ok. For example, why can't the county sheriff's office or the state police handle issues on trains? Other than RTD being a district and districts being equal to a city in the government hierarchy and if one has cops, then so does the other. The issue I see is that Union Station as an RTD facility isn't expected to have its own water and sewer system, so why should RTD have its own cops? Especially when they tend to be ineffective compared to the police department that patrols just outside the doors.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Transit agencies having their own police force allow those officers to focus on problems involving transit. Local police department have other demands and might put any kind of transit enforcement on the back burner.

Having such police forces is quite a crazy quilt. Metra, for instance, has its own police force to protect passengers and property across a six-county area, while the CTA and Pace rely on local police.

Got to agree with Bob that "Defund the Police" is the worst political slogan of all time.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Not sure how private railroads have gotten there own police forces. It’s a bit easier to understand how a government organization has there own police forces. Still you be amazed how how many government organizations have there own police.

 

[jis]

Moderator's Note: This thread was moved from the Amtrak Rail Discussion Forum to here on the Commuter Rail and Rail Transit Forum to better align the content with the Forum.

 

[me_little_me]

Not sure how private railroads have gotten there own police forces. It’s a bit easier to understand how a government organization has there own police forces. Still you be amazed how how many government organizations have there own police.

I believe the NYC Transit Police were, at one time, the second largest police force in NY state, the NYPD being the largest.

They no longer exist as an independent police force, having been merged into the NYPD in '95. I had a first cousin who was a Transit Cop.

 

[Willbridge]

Notes in understanding why the transit police in Denver are limited in their power -- RTD is classed by the courts as a state "entity" -- not a municipality or a county. It can only do what the state legislation creating it permits. The opposite is true of Denver -- it is what is constitutionally defined as a "home rule" city, which gives it quite a bit of leeway in how it does things.

Obviously, this situation needs to be corrected, but that includes labor issues. And Denver is not immune from the labor shortage. The police force is under its authorized strength.

And, although railway police and transit police exist for the same reasons, through years of lobbying the private railway police have more authority than the transit police.

Personal note: I enjoy the surface walk in good weather and go through the underground bus facility in bad weather. Either way, I've not been bothered by anyone, but I'm no longer down there late at night.

 

[neroden]

The defund the police slogan comes from the notion that you need to demand something extreme to get something more workable. The actual goal is to reform the police, effectively speaking but they think you need to demand the abolition of policing to get real reforms. There are police abolitionists in the world, but most at least state they want reforms but use an inflammatory rhetoric to get noticed. The issue being that if you get too crazy, you get ignored anyways. Its kind of the same deal with some people advocating for public transit think of any rail improvement short of a 225 mph high speed line is a waste of money.

The issue I have is why we even need transit police in the first place. They just seem to be a weird inefficiency in government that we have just accepted as being ok. For example, why can't the county sheriff's office or the state police handle issues on trains? Other than RTD being a district and districts being equal to a city in the government hierarchy and if one has cops, then so does the other. The issue I see is that Union Station as an RTD facility isn't expected to have its own water and sewer system, so why should RTD have its own cops? Especially when they tend to be ineffective compared to the police department that patrols just outside the doors.

Oh, it started with railroads and transit systems which cross municipal and even state borders. NJT police can handle incidents on NJT whether the train is in NJ, NY, or PA. State and local police would be out of jurisdiction.

Imagine a criminal committing assault on a train in one county, the county police respond, but now the train is in another county and they have no jurisdiction.... This happened. So railways can have their own police. Goal is to keep the trains moving, which is why I am disgusted when a train is delayed for police activity for long periods .... Railroad police exist so the police investigation can continue without stopping the trains...

Less relevant in stations. Relevant on the actual trains.

 

[Willbridge]

A follow-up from Denver.

Homelessness crisis lands at Denver airport, prompting cycle of arrests (msn.com)

Reports are that the social workers at Denver Union Station are finding that some of the unhoused people don't want to relocate into programs to help them. This isn't news to anyone who has worked on the street, but it's a cycle that we must go through. As the linked article shows, some feeling the combined law enforcement and social services pressure at DUS have taken the A-Line out to DIA.

When we went through an economic downturn in the 1990's RTD printed a green shirt-pocket card that had the addresses for shelters and social services listed. It was so that bus drivers could try to help people who demanded to ride free or sleep overnight on buses. Instead, it worked like a magic talisman. When panhandled, I'd pull it out of my pocket and the person asking for money would swear and turn away when they saw the card.

The person quoted in the article doesn't know it, but there are ways to get to DIA at low prices using discounts that are federally mandated or just because the elected board of directors felt generous.

DISCOUNTS

Discount fares are available for all seniors 65+, individuals with disabilities, [my boldface] Medicare recipients, and youth (ages 6-19). Children five years of age or younger ride free with a fare-paying adult (limit three children with each fare-paying adult). An income-based fare discount is available for qualifying riders who enroll in RTD’s LiVE Program. Active duty members of the U.S. military ride for free on all RTD services. Proof of eligibility is required for all passengers using discounted fare products.

My church in North Denver had a community lunch on Sundays and I'd sit and chat with some of the guys who knew I worked back then for RTD. They swapped tips on how to get the disabilities discount via doctors who wanted to be helpful. Or they could get tickets or monthly passes from charities trying to help them find jobs. Before the distant airport opened, the popular request of charities was for tickets to a job interview in Boulder that obtained the highest value ticket.

So, this stuff has been going on since time eternal, but the volume has been increasing and "railroad bull" methods of handling problem characters are no longer acceptable. Just to give the airport something to worry about, the governor of Colorado is on record as favoring free transit service. Right now, the airport only has to deal with the craftiest. With free service it'll look like a snowstorm crowd at the airport every night.

 

[neroden]

Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. This was proven when Salt Lake City tried just giving them all apartments; only a few still wanted to sleep outdoors. I personally think it's worth just paying for the apartments to keep 'em off the street, along with a food & clothing stipend.

Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.

While some others are slackers who don't want to work, I figure, if they don't want to work, I don't want them doing any work. At this time in history, most work requires some degree of skill and desire to do a good job, and people who don't want to work are just going to make a mess of it; pay them to stay out of the way, I say!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. This was proven when Salt Lake City tried just giving them all apartments; only a few still wanted to sleep outdoors. I personally think it's worth just paying for the apartments to keep 'em off the street, along with a food & clothing stipend.

Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.

While some others are slackers who don't want to work, I figure, if they don't want to work, I don't want them doing any work. At this time in history, most work requires some degree of skill and desire to do a good job, and people who don't want to work are just going to make a mess of it; pay them to stay out of the way, I say!

I agree with house first approach. Then we can address the next set of issues. Drug, alcohol or metal issues. However there a big group of homeless that just need a place to live. A roof and a physical address will take care a very large percentage of the homeless. Those would need more can get more services after they have a roof.

As for needed a college degree it’s overrated and trade school is still a needed profession. That and quality warehouse pickers.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Got to agree with Bob that "Defund the Police" is the worst political slogan of all time.

It should have been Demilitarize or maybe Deescalate the Police but of course our corporate media will label almost any push for change as "Defunding" now.

Honestly most homeless people would take an efficiency apartment if it was offered. Not all, certainly, but most. [...] Many are mentally ill and not capable of working.

Even many who work can no longer afford rent thanks to the large and growing disparity between American wages and housing costs. There is little reason to think this will change anytime soon.