Bypassed college towns

[RobertB]

It seems to be an article of faith that college towns are good places to have Amtrak stops. But there are a couple of college towns in Texas that are bypassed by Amtrak, when it seems (to a rail noob like me) that it would have been just as easy to run a train into them.

Waco is home to Baylor University, and there's a rail line from Fort Worth to Temple via Waco. But Amtrak doesn't follow that line. Instead, the Texas Eagle goes along tracks to the west, so the nearest station to Waco is McGregor, 20 miles west. Other than a too-short article from 15 years ago, there doesn't seem to be any indication of plans to serve the city. Does this have something to do with the quality of the rails, or with problems doing business with different freight lines? Or is the biggest problem that the line would bypass Cleburne, which built an intermodal terminal... that serves less than a dozen people a day?

Denton has the 40,000-student University of North Texas, and has a robust transit system. The local transit authority will begin commuter rail service to connect with Dallas light rail in June. Yet the Heartland Flyer doesn't follow the tracks that go from Fort Worth directly to Denton -- again, the Amtrak train bears west. There isn't even a stop in Krum, less than 10 miles out, despite the small town ponying up some pocket change ($35k might build a lean-to, matching federal funds might give it a roof?). I can see why the route didn't start up with a station in Krum, but why didn't it just go through Denton in the first place?

I'm sure there are complexities that I don't know about, so I'd love to learn more. I didn't realize that maintenance costs were such a huge part of route decisions, and that a freight company can effectively terminate passenger service to a city the size of Phoenix just by deciding to downgrade the tracks stop running their trains at speed.

 

[stntylr]

Hey, I've caught the train in Cleburne, it's a nice station but totally underused.

I think the reason they use that line is that it was used long before Amtrak came around. The McGregor train station (which I've also caught a train from) is over one hundred years old.

Also you have to look at which railroads will let Amtrak use their track.

Take at look at another TXDOT project. High speed rail between Houston and Dallas. According to the application for federal funds three possible routes were identified. One would go through College Station, home of Texas A&M. Another would go through the large northern Houston suburbs of Conroe and Huntsville. But the one that seems most likely is the BNSF route which splits the I-45 corridor and the Highway 6 route and goes through the middle of nowhere.

Why is this the most likely? Because BNSF has already agreed to let TXDOT study it for high speed rail. Something that UP which owns the other 2 routes has kept quite on.

 

[guest]

Amtrak runs right through Oxford,Ohio, home of Miami University on the route of the Cardinal, but doesn't stop.

It's a bit of a shame, since they used to stop in Hamilton, Ohio, which is south of Oxford, and closer to Cincinnati,

so proximity to a large town isn't at issue.

I'm guessing Amtrak would be happy to stop there, if Oxford were willing to put up the $500,000 or so needed for

an adequate station. Of course, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[fairviewroad]

I don't think a once-a-day LD train is really geared toward the college market. Of course you would

have students making trips near the beginning and end of each term, but it's not quite the "go home

for the weekend" kind of set-up that really drives frequent travel. I mean, is a Baylor student from Dallas

or San Antonio really going to wait around for the TE to roll through in order to head home for Thanksgiving?

Or for that matter, is a UNT student from Fort Worth going to adjust his/her plans around the once daily

Heartland Flyer?

If there was demand from Baylor students to ride on the TE, the university could surely start a shuttle service

to/from MacGregor. Now, if you are talking about a faster, multiple frequency per day train then I would definitely

agree with your point.

 

[guest]

I mean, is a Baylor student from Dallas

or San Antonio really going to wait around for the TE to roll through in order to head home for Thanksgiving?

Or for that matter, is a UNT student from Fort Worth going to adjust his/her plans around the once daily

Heartland Flyer?

I think two things are worth remembering.

First, college students are thrifty. They've got more time than money, and they're very good at finding cheap travel deals. Amtrak appeals based on price.

For universities in large towns, like Dallas, I think you're right, there are lots of other options, but in

smaller towns like Oxford, Ohio, Champaign Illinois, or West Lafayette, Indiana, the options are more limited.

The price of a flight from those towns to a larger airport is often prohibitive, so taking the train to Chicago,

or another big city is often a better option to get a lower price.

 

[Ispolkom]

I mean, is a Baylor student from Dallas

or San Antonio really going to wait around for the TE to roll through in order to head home for Thanksgiving?

Or for that matter, is a UNT student from Fort Worth going to adjust his/her plans around the once daily

Heartland Flyer?

I think two things are worth remembering.

First, college students are thrifty. They've got more time than money, and they're very good at finding cheap travel deals. Amtrak appeals based on price.

For universities in large towns, like Dallas, I think you're right, there are lots of other options, but in

smaller towns like Oxford, Ohio, Champaign Illinois, or West Lafayette, Indiana, the options are more limited.

The price of a flight from those towns to a larger airport is often prohibitive, so taking the train to Chicago,

or another big city is often a better option to get a lower price.

The reverse is also true. I went to college in Chicago, but traveled to see my parents in Minot, North Dakota, on the Empire Builder. Flying was much too expensive.

 

[The Crazy Vacationer]

I know of several friends who used the South Shore Line to get from South Bend to Chicago and then to one of the airports. It was much cheaper than flying from South Bend or using a shuttle bus.

 

[henryj]

Amtrak uses the BNSF route north and south of Ft Worth to avoid having to deal with the UP.

 

[the_traveler]

I think two things are worth remembering.

First, college students are thrifty. They've got more time than money, and they're very good at finding cheap travel deals. Amtrak appeals based on price.

For universities in large towns, like Dallas, I think you're right, there are lots of other options, but in

smaller towns like Oxford, Ohio, Champaign Illinois, or West Lafayette, Indiana, the options are more limited.

The price of a flight from those towns to a larger airport is often prohibitive, so taking the train to Chicago,

or another big city is often a better option to get a lower price.

That's why you see more college students on Amtrak or Greyhound then on United Airlines or American Airlines!

Another reason (as said) is either the railroads that own the tracks thru those college towns, or the conditions of the tracks. Given a route away from a college town that allows 79 MPH running or a route thru a college town where the tracks only allow 20 MPH running, I think Amtrak would chose the 79 MPH route! And the other 300-500+ people on the train would probably agree with Amtrak too!

 

[Train Traveler]

It's insane that they don't stop in Denton, Texas since there are so many students of North Texas State who live in San Antonio and Austin that would love to commute in that way. Retardation at its finest.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

The Empire Builder by passes Cheney, WA (Eastern Washington University).

 

[WICT106]

The Empire Builder by passes Cheney, WA (Eastern Washington University).

The Builder also bypasses Madison, WI -- We even have to deal with many from Milwaukee (which has train service !! ) who have said, and continue to claim, that "No one will ride a train to Madison." :angry: :angry:

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

The Empire Builder by passes Cheney, WA (Eastern Washington University).

The Builder also bypasses Madison, WI -- We even have to deal with many from Milwaukee (which has train service !! ) who have said, and continue to claim, that "No one will ride a train to Madison." :angry: :angry:

Madison isn't even on the Builder route, Cheney is.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Amtrak Shenandoan from Cincinnati to Washington DC via the former B&O line stopped in Chillicothe, OH home of Ohio University and had large ridership there. Unfortunately, not good ridership along the rest of the line at least til Cumberland, MD. I think part of the line has now been abandoned.

 

[TimePeace]

It's insane that they don't stop in Denton, Texas since there are so many students of North Texas State who live in San Antonio and Austin that would love to commute in that way. Retardation at its finest.

Wow - two examples for the price of one.

 

[cirdan]

It's not always simple to move a train to another line, or to build a new station. Just because there are tracks there doesn't mean you can easily add a train. There are things like condition of the tracks, usage by other trains etc to be taken into account. Also, as mentioned, some railroads are more obstructive than others when it comes to passenger trains. Furthermore, just because there are tracks, it doesn't always make sense to run a train there as the question is what tracks you are talking about and whether they actually go where you want the train to go?

Denton is now served by the A-train, which connects to the DART light rail system. DART takes you to Dallas Union station. The Greyhound terminal is just a block or so from a DART stop. In the near future the DART line to DFW airport will also be completed. So compared to some other college places that have virtually no connectivity at all, Denton isn't that badly served.

 

[xyzzy]

Having put my own college-bound sons on trains serving North Carolina, I believe that college students comprise as much as half of the passenger count on Fridays and Sundays from August to May for the Piedmonts, Carolinian, and Silver Star.

 

[JayPea]

The Empire Builder by passes Cheney, WA (Eastern Washington University).

I'd love to see daytime service between Spokane and Seattle over the NP route, and see service to Cheney added. Another college town, Ellensburg (Central Washington University) would potentially see service as well. Right now, since the EB races through Cheney at 3AM or so, the time isn't exactly conducive to creating a new stop there. There is still a station in Cheney, but BNSF is seriously considering demolishing it. As it stands, it's likely that daytime service between Seattle and Spokane, with an added stop in Cheney will happen when this does:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way, make sure you smile when you mention Eastern Washington University! ^_^ I am a proud graduate of EWU, class of '83.

 

[PRR 60]

All Keystone Service trains stop at Paoli PA and some stop at Ardmore PA. About halfway between PAO and ARD sits Villanova, a SEPTA stop that it literally in the middle of the Villanova University campus. SEPTA's Paoli/Thorndale trains stop at Villanova, but Amtrak just rolls right through. VU has about 7000 undergrad students, with a decent number from the NY-Boston area. I've always thought that having a couple of Friday afternoon eastbounds and a couple of Sunday westbounds stop at Villanova would result in good numbers. Yes, students can ride SEPTA down to 30th Street and catch Amtrak there, but a one-seat, single fare ride right from the campus would seem preferable, and with e-ticketing, could be provided at virtually no cost. All the train has to do is stop and open the doors.

 

[benjibear]

I don't think Vilanova would produce the numbers you think. If a "poor" college student, needs to use public transportation, they would get on SEPTA and ride to connect with Amtrak. I would think the use of cheap public transportation is proportional to cost of the college. I would think the cheaper state schools would produce more riders.

 

[BCL]

Just thinking, but the Capitol Corridor route services several major universities. From south to north - San Jose State, Cal State East Bay, UC Berkeley, and UC Davis. However, the first two are primarily commuter schools. I see a lot of people coming in from Davis along the route. It's a major feature of the Davis Wiki page:

http://daviswiki.org/Amtrak

Still - the long distance trains don't stop at the Berkeley station, although Emeryville isn't that far. It's also a pretty long way from the campus although there is bus service (AC Transit 51). I guess if someone really needed to do it, they could do a short hop on Capitol Corridor to get to Emeryville. It's only about a mile.

 

[user 1215]

It's insane that they don't stop in Denton, Texas since there are so many students of North Texas State who live in San Antonio and Austin that would love to commute in that way. Retardation at its finest.

Wow - two examples for the price of one.

The Heartland Flyer goes by Denton about 8 miles away along a long stretch of single track. I can't imagine there being any way that the Host (UP or BNSF?) would allow a train to stop there. There is also almost nothing else around that area. At least Denton now has the A Train that along with DART and the TRE can get you to Fort Worth to catch the Texas Eagle or Heartland Flyer.

 

[fairviewroad]

All Keystone Service trains stop at Paoli PA and some stop at Ardmore PA. About halfway between PAO and ARD sits Villanova, a SEPTA stop that it literally in the middle of the Villanova University campus. SEPTA's Paoli/Thorndale trains stop at Villanova, but Amtrak just rolls right through. VU has about 7000 undergrad students, with a decent number from the NY-Boston area. I've always thought that having a couple of Friday afternoon eastbounds and a couple of Sunday westbounds stop at Villanova would result in good numbers. Yes, students can ride SEPTA down to 30th Street and catch Amtrak there, but a one-seat, single fare ride right from the campus would seem preferable, and with e-ticketing, could be provided at virtually no cost. All the train has to do is stop and open the doors.

Good points, but keep in mind there are many college campuses around Philadelphia. If you add Villanova, then the folks down the line at the similarly-sized St. Josephs University would clamor for their own Keystone stop. (SEPTA's Overbrook station is on the edge of the St. Joseph's campus). Then there's the combination of Bryn Mawr College and Harcum College which straddle the SEPTA Bryn Mawr stop along the Keystone Line. Together, that's another substantial # of college students. So it quickly becomes a question of who gets favored.

Anyhow, from some of the closer-in stations along the "Main Line" it's almost as fast to ride the SEPTA train into Philly and change there as it would be to board an Amtrak train that has to reverse directions at 30th Street. The reversal moves eat up anywhere from 10-30 minutes depending on the train, which sort of reduces the benefit of having a one-seat ride.

 

[Nathanael]

It seems to be an article of faith that college towns are good places to have Amtrak stops. But there are a couple of college towns in Texas that are bypassed by Amtrak, when it seems (to a rail noob like me) that it would have been just as easy to run a train into them.
Waco is home to Baylor University, and there's a rail line from Fort Worth to Temple via Waco. But Amtrak doesn't follow that line. Instead, the Texas Eagle goes along tracks to the west, so the nearest station to Waco is McGregor, 20 miles west. Other than a too-short article from 15 years ago, there doesn't seem to be any indication of plans to serve the city. Does this have something to do with the quality of the rails, or with problems doing business with different freight lines?

In the case of Waco, the current problem is Union Pacific. In more recent years, switching from the line through Cleburne and McGregor to the line through Waco would require switching from BNSF to UP, and UP has been openly hostile to new train service.

I'm not entirely sure why the Inter-American took the route it did back in '73, but (now as the Texas Eagle) it's been on the same route ever since. From what I've read, it was roughly the same situation in '73. The Waco line had already lost its passenger service before '73, and Missouri Pacific didn't want it reinstated; the McGregor/Cleburne line still had passenger service and the Santa Fe was OK with keeping it.

Or is the biggest problem that the line would bypass Cleburne, which built an intermodal terminal... that serves less than a dozen people a day?
Denton has the 40,000-student University of North Texas, and has a robust transit system. The local transit authority will begin commuter rail service to connect with Dallas light rail in June. Yet the Heartland Flyer doesn't follow the tracks that go from Fort Worth directly to Denton -- again, the Amtrak train bears west.

The Heartland Flyer is paid for by Oklahoma. Therefore it takes the most direct route to Oklahoma; heck, I'm surprised it stops in Gainesville TX, but that stop probably gets people driving from Oklahoma. Also, the current route is all-BNSF; the route via Denton would require going on UP (and also KCS which currently hosts NO passenger trains and probably doesn't want to).

Beginning to get the picture? Look at who's paying and look at the corporate culture of the track owners.

There isn't even a stop in Krum, less than 10 miles out, despite the small town ponying up some pocket change ($35k might build a lean-to, matching federal funds might give it a roof?). I can see why the route didn't start up with a station in Krum, but why didn't it just go through Denton in the first place?
I'm sure there are complexities that I don't know about, so I'd love to learn more.

I didn't realize that maintenance costs were such a huge part of route decisions, and that a freight company can effectively terminate passenger service to a city the size of Phoenix just by deciding to downgrade the tracks stop running their trains at speed.

Indeed they are and indeed they can. Railroads are what's known as "capital intensive" -- the running costs are a fraction of the construction and maintenance costs.

 

[Nathanael]

Cheney, WA and Oxford, OH, which are actually on the tracks which are currently used by the passenger trains, are probably cases where Amtrak *would* stop if the city or university paid to build a platform. BNSF would be OK with a platform on its line (Cheney) and I think CSX probably would be OK too (Oxford).