California Zephyr discussion

[zephyr17]

I don't know if I've ever actually been in a train with a Cross Country Cafe, so that makes it hard to respond to this observation. What I am advocating is a diner-lounge car like many pre-Amtrak trains had, offering full sit-down waiter service in the dining room, and counter service in the other half of the car. There would be kitchen in the middle of the car, making it possible to provide at least some of the dining car to food to counter patrons.

The dining and lounge end are separated by the service area where the dumbwaiter is in the Superliner Diner-Lounge conversions ("Cross Country Cafe" was the type of service that was to be initiated in those cars, which it never really was). They face away from each other and are separated. The lounge end has a service counter and 4 tables. That separation greatly reduces the flexibility of the space.

Some of the best implementations of a diner/lounge concept were SP's Pride of Texas coffee shop/lounge cars and their Lark Club triple units. In both the galley was at one end. The dining car steward's "buffet" and the lounge service counter both faced in toward the passenger space, usually on opposite ends. The space in between was flexible and the space dedicated to dining versus lounge service could be varied. The best example was the Lark Club. The Lark offered dinner, but relatively few passengers utilized it, but the cocktail lounge was highly popular, so the triple unit was set up with maybe 1/3rd of the available space as a diner, the rest was a lounge. Conversely in the morning there was a huge demand for breakfast, so that same space was set up for meal service. They did this by basically using banquette seating through the the variable section of the car rather than regular four top tables.

The Superliner Diner-Lounges are terrible implementations of what traditionally was a very successful car type. Of course they were converted from diners and were limited by the existing design of the cars, the galley downstairs and the dumbwaiter smack in the middle. Amtrak's original intention was to convert all Superliner diners to Diner-Lounges in their quest to only have one food service car on all trains. Happily, the conversions went slowly enough that Amtrak had time to realize what disasters the cars were and stopped messing up perfectly good diners. That's a good thing, because had they successfully converted the diners, the next targets were the Sightseers. It is one of the better examples of Amtrak's slowness in implementing plans being of benefit.

 

[jis]

The Superliner Diner-Lounges are terrible implementations of what traditionally was a very successful car type. Of course they were converted from diners and were limited by the existing design of the cars, the galley downstairs and the dumbwaiter smack in the middle. Amtrak's original intention was to convert all Superliner diners to Diner-Lounges in their quest to only have one food service car on all trains. Happily, the conversions went slowly enough that Amtrak had time to realize what disasters the cars were and stopped messing up perfectly good diners. That's a good thing, because had they successfully converted the diners, the next targets were the Sightseers.

Sadly that experience did not make it through the thick skull of clueless flyboy Anderson, who proceeded to try to convert the Viewliner Diners into Diner-Lounges, and I think they did manage to butcher one car before that madness came to an end.

 

[jiml]

Just a reference point, Simply Railway's latest Capitol Limited review features a Cross Country Cafe. Fast forward to about 15:00 to view:

 

[zephyr17]

He's entering from the diner end. About 1/2 the car is diner, the lounge is maybe 1/4 of the car, maybe less (as I said, just 4 tables). I didn't really see anything of the lounge end or the lounge/cafe service counter.

 

[jimdex]

Thanks for pointing that out. It is hard to plan on how many coach passengers are going to want to eat in the dining car and only so much food available.

One possibility for dealing with that would be allowing coach passengers (and possibly sleeper passengers) to pre-pay for dining car service (maybe even for specific meals) when they make their reservations. That way, demand could be anticipated.

 

[jis]

One possibility for dealing with that would be allowing coach passengers (and possibly sleeper passengers) to pre-pay for dining car service (maybe even for specific meals) when they make their reservations. That way, demand could be anticipated.

According to the F&B Committee Members I talked to last week, that is precisely one option that is being explored by them.

 

[jimdex]

Amtrak accounting is hopelessly screwed up and deliberately opaque. The RPA did an extensive analysis of it a couple of years ago. It is a dumpster fire. If their accounting truly captured the above the rail costs, sleepers would almost certainly break even and might well show a profit, even after deducting the costs of meals transferred to F&B from the sleeper revenue.

If that is the case, would it be conceivably possible to develop an argument that sleepers and diners -- considered as a single business unit -- are profitable? Figures backing that up could go a long way, in my opinion, to preserving both services.

 

[jis]

If that is the case, would it be conceivably possible to develop an argument that sleepers and diners -- considered as a single business unit -- are profitable? Figures backing that up could go a long way, in my opinion, to preserving both services.

I think that would be a huge mistake, mainly because the cost side involves large chunks that are based on allocated cost, and provides opportunities for hanky-panky. It is bad enough trying to get actual cost for an entire train straighened out before one tries to slice and dice it further.

 

[jimdex]

I think that would be a huge mistake, mainly because the cost side involves large chunks that are based on allocated cost, and provides opportunities for hanky-panky. It is bad enough trying to get actual cost for an entire train straighened out before one tries to slice and dice it further.

Well, I should perhaps clarify what I mean by "profitable." By profitable, I mean providing enough additional revenue to an otherwise all-coach train to decrease the train's overall loss. My fear is that while many taxpayers are willing to support coach trains as a public service, some may balk at subsidizing "luxury" sleeper and diner services perceived as being used by more affluent passengers. It might help if it can be shown that sleeper passengers are providing a "profit" that actually subsidizes coach passengers.

 

[zephyr17]

I think that would be a huge mistake, mainly because the cost side involves large chunks that are based on allocated cost, and provides opportunities for hanky-panky. It is bad enough trying to get actual cost for an entire train straighened out before one tries to slice and dice it further.

The allocated costs are where Amtrak does its book cooking.

Note in my post I said "above the rail" costs. Directly attributable costs. Supplies, crew wages, fuel, etc. In a decent accounting system, those should be able to be clear and available. I still contend that if honest, directly attributable costs could be teased out, sleepers would likely show as profitable or at least break-even. However, Amtrak appears to want to be deliberately opaque.

Back in the day, according to Fred Frailey in "Twilight of the Great Trains" most railroads kept services that were breaking even in above the rail costs. They only broke out the global cost accounting with allocated costs when they went before the ICC for discontinuance to make performance look as bad as possible. But they didn't make the decision to seek discontinuance based on that. That decision was made based on directly attributable costs.

 

[jis]

Back in the day, according to Fred Frailey in "Twight of the Great Trains" most railroads kept services that were breaking even in above the rail costs. They only broke out the global cost accounting with allocated costs when they went before the ICC for discontinuance to make performance look as bad as possible. But they didn't make the decision to seek discontinuance based on that. That decision was made based on directly attributable costs.

I agree with that. My observation though is that whenever there is a political decision, usually an appropriately cooked book is found to support such. Thus what we need to do is make sure that the political decision leans the right way before we go into discussing the minutia of the financial books. I guess I have become too jaded having observed this exercise take place over and over.

Having said that, I think one approach that appears to be working is the bigger analysis of routes that RPA is providing using their tool which they purchased license to for overall economic impact of the presence of a service in comparison with the absence of service. Apparently decision makers understand such things better to set the political agenda straight before entering into the minutia of whether to run Sleeper or not. Even there an overall economic impact analysis will probably be more useful than just over the rail cost and credit. But mind you this is just me sharing raw thoughts driven by decades of frustration with finances focused on just the operations.

 

[jimdex]

Back in the day, according to Fred Frailey in "Twilight of the Great Trains" most railroads kept services that were breaking even in above the rail costs. They only broke out the global cost accounting with allocated costs when they went before the ICC for discontinuance to make performance look as bad as possible. But they didn't make the decision to seek discontinuance based on that. That decision was made based on directly attributable costs.

This is true, but there is one significant difference. The private railroads could cover the fixed costs with freight revenues. Amtrak must cover the fixed costs with government subsidies,

 

[zephyr17]

This is true, but there is one significant difference. The private railroads could cover the fixed costs with freight revenues. Amtrak must cover the fixed costs with government subsidies,

That still does not excuse setting up the accounting in a way that honest, directly attributable costs are pretty much impossible to tease out.

 

[coalman]

I will travel CZ in the beginning of June 2023. Are there parts of the railbed that are at risk of flooding from extreme snowpack this year?
I took Coast Starlight 2 years ago when fire wiped out a bridge and my trip. Just want to know if it might happen again. I mean that my trip may be canceled again due to a natural catastrophe.

 

[Willbridge]

There are chances for flooding on the CZ route, depending on how quickly the snow pack melts. A few days ago the Colorado River was higher than it has been in recent years, but it still had room for more water.

Last summer the fires and landslides disrupted my trip planned on the CZ and CS. However, I got from Denver to Portland via the Billings>Spokane bus connection. On the return, I took Greyhound from Portland to Redding (where they share a station with the California Thruway bus), then the Amtrak Thruway bus to Sacramento and back onto my planned route. It was more inconvenient than if trains had been running, but it worked.

I wouldn't abandon the idea of a train trip. Generally, if a train trip between major cities is interrupted there are alternatives available. If one plans an air trip and there is a fiasco, it's hard to find a substitute at the last minute.

Oh, and on my last leg of the 2019 trip, I-70 was closed in Glenwood Canyon and we had a nice view of the massive clearance project from the Zephyr.

 

[mike732]

We're interested in taking the train from Emeryville to Chicago and booking a roomette but we've heard that when you're outside the room you can't lock it. So during meals and while sitting in the sightseeing car I guess that means our luggage is sitting in the room that anyone can walk into. Have people had problems, or is this generally safe?

 

[BlackDiamond]

We're interested in taking the train from Emeryville to Chicago and booking a roomette but we've heard that when you're outside the room you can't lock it. So during meals and while sitting in the sightseeing car I guess that means our luggage is sitting in the room that anyone can walk into. Have people had problems, or is this generally safe?

The general consensus seems to be that your stuff will be safe. Generally the sleepers being away from the coach section means the only traffic through your sleeper should be other sleeper passengers. Many of us leave most of our luggage in the racks downstairs near the stairwell. Of course anything important such as wallets, passports etc. should be carried with you.

 

[amtrakp42]

The general consensus seems to be that your stuff will be safe. Generally the sleepers being away from the coach section means the only traffic through your sleeper should be other sleeper passengers. Many of us leave most of our luggage in the racks downstairs near the stairwell. Of course anything important such as wallets, passports etc. should be carried with you.

After riding Amtrak the first year on the old Northern Pacific route from Chicago to Spokane and have been on some or all the western superliner routes every year in the last 15 years there has never been an issue of theft I was aware of.

Although after getting settled in my roomette on the California Zephyr at Union Station in Chicago, there were two well-dressed gentleman that came on board and introduced themselves to the two guys in the next roomette as detectives explaining to the guys they were making a routine check. Of course I knew that wasn’t true as it never happened on a train I boarded anywhere on Amtrak. But the detectives first question was how much cash they had. One guy said they had $1500 as they just came from the casino. After asking a few more questions, they did ask to see the cash. Well it seemed by the conversation they actually had over $10,000 in cash. So then the detectives told them they would need to go with them to the police station to straighten things out! So I’m making the assumption the detectives knew they had a large amount of cash and had an idea why. After they took the guys off the train, I decided I was glad the two guys were not armed. If there had been shots fired they probably would have took the sleeper off the train, so I may have never left Chicago that day?

 

[Brian Battuello]

Long term regular riders occasionally see some sort of police action. Usually drunks, drug ODs, unresolved arguments etc. Personally I have never felt the least bit unsafe on a train. However, like anywhere, it occasionally happens. For new readers/riders, I want to emphasis that this is extremely rare.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...aises-question-safety-guns-trains/6029062001/
While the URL mentions safety, the article was surprisingly well balanced.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

After riding Amtrak the first year on the old Northern Pacific route from Chicago to Spokane and have been on some or all the western superliner routes every year in the last 15 years there has never been an issue of theft I was aware of.

Although after getting settled in my roomette on the California Zephyr at Union Station in Chicago, there were two well-dressed gentleman that came on board and introduced themselves to the two guys in the next roomette as detectives explaining to the guys they were making a routine check. Of course I knew that wasn’t true as it never happened on a train I boarded anywhere on Amtrak. But the detectives first question was how much cash they had. One guy said they had $1500 as they just came from the casino. After asking a few more questions, they did ask to see the cash. Well it seemed by the conversation they actually had over $10,000 in cash. So then the detectives told them they would need to go with them to the police station to straighten things out! So I’m making the assumption the detectives knew they had a large amount of cash and had an idea why. After they took the guys off the train, I decided I was glad the two guys were not armed. If there had been shots fired they probably would have took the sleeper off the train, so I may have never left Chicago that day?

“making a routine check. Of course I knew that wasn’t true as it never happened on a train I boarded anywhere on Amtrak. “
Just because you’ve never witnessed it doesn’t mean it has never happened. The guys probably bought one way tickets with cash which probably triggered a “possible drug money” alarm.

 

[Brian Battuello]

I understand what amtrakp42 is saying. I have seen minor police involvement several times, but if two cops are sticking their nose into a compartment for "a routine check" they probably have a lot more than that to go on.

 

[basketmaker]

We're interested in taking the train from Emeryville to Chicago and booking a roomette but we've heard that when you're outside the room you can't lock it. So during meals and while sitting in the sightseeing car I guess that means our luggage is sitting in the room that anyone can walk into. Have people had problems, or is this generally safe?

Done the CZ and most others several times in roomettes and bedrooms. Have left my laptop, camera, gps and other items sitting in the room. And bag(s) in the luggage rack and have never had an issue. Nor have I ever encountered any other traveler that has either. Occasionally luggage would be moved around in the rack but never anything missing. Just pull your curtains and slide the door closed you'll be fine.

 

[Asher]

Done the CZ and most others several times in roomettes and bedrooms. Have left my laptop, camera, gps and other items sitting in the room. And bag(s) in the luggage rack and have never had an issue. Nor have I ever encountered any other traveler that has either. Occasionally luggage would be moved around in the rack but never anything missing. Just pull your curtains and slide the door closed you'll be fine.

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve never read on this forum where someone claims to have had anything stolen from a roomette.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I wonder what is going on with the CZ today. Both 5 and 6 of the 16th are showing "service disruption" 5 in Nebraska and 6 near Provo UT.

 

[jrriggs79]

I wonder what is going on with the CZ today. Both 5 and 6 of the 16th are showing "service disruption" 5 in Nebraska and 6 near Provo UT.

Flooding in Grand Junction is part of the issue.