Can We Have A Better Cardinal Schedule, Please?

[John Bobinyec]

The present schedules are:

50: CHI 545P, IND 1159P, CIN 327A, WAS 644P, NYP 958P
51: NYP 645A, WAS 1100A, CIN 141A, IND 600A, CHI 1000A

50 gets to IND, CIN and NYP at horrible times. 51 leaves NYP and IND very early and in the middle of the night for CIN.

I think these schedules are a vestige of trying to use these two trains as commuter trains between Indianapolis and Chicago. The schedules east of Indianapolis are not so good.

If we forget about the vestige of past schedules, here are adjusted schedules:

50: CHI 945A, IND 359P, CIN 727P, WAS 1044A, NYP 158P
51: NYP 115P, WAS 530P, CIN 811A, IND 1230P, CHI 430P

The running times are the same and the commission hours in NYP are avoided. Now the trains visit all the major cities at reasonable hours. People would want to visit Cincinnati again, by train.

Why does Amtrak cling to the present day schedules of these trains, as horrible as they are?

jb

 

[zephyr17]

The present schedules are:

50: CHI 545P, IND 1159P, CIN 327A, WAS 644P, NYP 958P
51: NYP 645A, WAS 1100A, CIN 141A, IND 600A, CHI 1000A

50 gets to IND, CIN and NYP at horrible times. 51 leaves NYP and IND very early and in the middle of the night for CIN.

I think these schedules are a vestige of trying to use these two trains as commuter trains between Indianapolis and Chicago. The schedules east of Indianapolis are not so good.

If we forget about the vestige of past schedules, here are adjusted schedules:

50: CHI 945A, IND 359P, CIN 727P, WAS 1044A, NYP 158P
51: NYP 115P, WAS 530P, CIN 811A, IND 1230P, CHI 430P

The running times are the same and the commission hours in NYP are avoided. Now the trains visit all the major cities at reasonable hours. People would want to visit Cincinnati again, by train.

Why does Amtrak cling to the present day schedules of these trains, as horrible as they are?

jb

The schedules are not due to Chicago-Indianapolis corridor service. The times in Indy are very unfriendly. Long ago, when the Hoosier State ran as a entirely separate train, the times in Indy were much friendlier (like leaving around 8:30 or 9:00 am, IIRC). The rotten times in Indy were precisely because it ran through to the east coast and connected with most western long distance trains.

Your schedule breaks all possible connections for the western long distance trains.

I doubt past schedules have much to do with it. I think connections do.

 

[Cal]

The present schedules are:

50: CHI 545P, IND 1159P, CIN 327A, WAS 644P, NYP 958P
51: NYP 645A, WAS 1100A, CIN 141A, IND 600A, CHI 1000A

50 gets to IND, CIN and NYP at horrible times. 51 leaves NYP and IND very early and in the middle of the night for CIN.

I think these schedules are a vestige of trying to use these two trains as commuter trains between Indianapolis and Chicago. The schedules east of Indianapolis are not so good.

If we forget about the vestige of past schedules, here are adjusted schedules:

50: CHI 945A, IND 359P, CIN 727P, WAS 1044A, NYP 158P
51: NYP 115P, WAS 530P, CIN 811A, IND 1230P, CHI 430P

The running times are the same and the commission hours in NYP are avoided. Now the trains visit all the major cities at reasonable hours. People would want to visit Cincinnati again, by train.

Why does Amtrak cling to the present day schedules of these trains, as horrible as they are?

jb

Why not just move 50 up by an hour or so (would break connection with only the EB), and 51 moved a bit back by an hour or so?

Would help Indy in both directions. Not so much Cincinnati

 

[saxman]

All Chicago connections need to be maintained. You could leave Chicago later and get a better Cincinnati time and still make the Crescent and Meteor connections. But not too much. It would arrive in NYP very late though.

 

[MARC Rider]

I believe I once heard that this train was run to placate certain powerful West Virginia senator(s) by providing service that connects West Virginia with Washington. For that purpose the current schedule works very well. It also connects pretty well with the western trains in Chicago, and provides reasonable service to Philadelphia, and Baltimore as well. Service to New York is a lower priority, anyway, as there is already a perfectly good direct train (the Lake Shore Limited) that connects New York and Chicago. New York-Indianapolis and New York-Cincinnati traffic is probably not significant enough to bother messing around with the other functions of the train.

They probably need to run an additional service to connect Chicago with Indianapolis and Cincinnati, that calls on those cities at more reasonable hours, but those trains doesn't need to go all the way to New York. The only reason you would want to take this train all the way between New York and Chicago would be to take a sightseeing cruise through the New River Gorge (which is also optimized by the current schedule); otherwise the trip is very roundabout and takes forever. Thus, I would think that the convenience of end to end passengers would take a lower priority to service that serves the constituents of powerful senators who control funding decisions.

 

[Anderson]

It's the Chicago connections that are at issue. The problem is that Amtrak does everything LD, save for the Silver Service, once a day. The Cardinal really needs two trains per day on the route: One running a bit later than the existing train eastbound and a bit earlier westbound (basically, throwing Indianapolis under the bus to serve Cincinnati better) and then one running like was proposed above (I'd probably push 50 about 2-4 hours later, so as to at least maintain connectivity from a few of the trains in the Chicago hub, and so as not to "over-stack" CVS-WAS with too many of its trains running in the same general timeframe...I'd throw some extra time in either overnight or at WAS if needed to avoid hitting NYP's rush hour; 51 feels about right, however). Phrased a bit more loosely, one train serves everything west of CIN during daylight and the other serves everything east of CIN during daylight (for admittedly loose definitions thereof).

P.S. The inability to check even the LD schedules on Amtrak.com is slowly turning into the last straw with Amtrak for me.

 

[Cal]

P.S. The inability to check even the LD schedules on Amtrak.com is slowly turning into the last straw with Amtrak for me.

You can

amtrak.com/cardinal-train

 

[Anderson]

You can

amtrak.com/cardinal-train

Yes, but I can't really path directly there. Amtrak has made it an utter PITA.

 

[John Bobinyec]

There are folks in Ohio who are trying to get regional train service together - Cleveland - Columbus - Cincinnati, for example. That's great, but it would be really helpful if they could connect to a long distance train either at Cleveland or Cincinnati.

jb

 

[Ryan]

Yes, but I can't really path directly there. Amtrak has made it an utter PITA.

Click on "Destinations".
Click on "See All Routes".
Click on "View Details" underneath the Cardinal.
Click on "Schedule".

Seems pretty intuitive to me.

View attachment Screen Recording 2021-05-21 at 7.38.28 AM.mov

 

[IndyLions]

The present schedules are:

50: CHI 545P, IND 1159P, CIN 327A, WAS 644P, NYP 958P
51: NYP 645A, WAS 1100A, CIN 141A, IND 600A, CHI 1000A

50 gets to IND, CIN and NYP at horrible times. 51 leaves NYP and IND very early and in the middle of the night for CIN.

I think these schedules are a vestige of trying to use these two trains as commuter trains between Indianapolis and Chicago. The schedules east of Indianapolis are not so good.

If we forget about the vestige of past schedules, here are adjusted schedules:

50: CHI 945A, IND 359P, CIN 727P, WAS 1044A, NYP 158P
51: NYP 115P, WAS 530P, CIN 811A, IND 1230P, CHI 430P

The running times are the same and the commission hours in NYP are avoided. Now the trains visit all the major cities at reasonable hours. People would want to visit Cincinnati again, by train.

Why does Amtrak cling to the present day schedules of these trains, as horrible as they are?

jb

I live in the Indianapolis area, and the schedule isn't all that inconvenient. It allows for an early morning departure, and a late night return after a day of business or sightseeing in Chicago. Of course, the Cincinnati schedule is another matter.

The real problems with the section of the route you are talking about is twofold:

• Running Time - it is way too long, and
• Frequency - you can't offer convenient times at multiple cities with one train a day (and this one only runs 3 days per week)

Amtrak has a plan to fix this. Their corridor plan calls for 4 trains per day between Cincinnati and Chicago, with the Cardinal being a daily train making up one of the round trips. The plan I'm sure also includes significant investment in the rail infrastructure Cincy/Chicago - which will make running times much more reasonable and practical.

So the solution is being proposed - get in touch with your Congressmen and your local state government and let them know you want a practical rail option as an alternative to driving.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Yes, but I can't really path directly there. Amtrak has made it an utter PITA.

Create shortcuts to each one.
I just bookmarked one on my phone.

 

[Steve4031]

Years ago the Cardinal left Chicago in the morning and took a leisurely ride across Indiana via Logansport and Muncie. Westbound the train operated in daylight hours west of Charleston. This was in the early 1980s. Then the schedule was switched to a 9 pm departure out of Chicago.

 

[coventry801]

All Chicago connections need to be maintained. You could leave Chicago later and get a better Cincinnati time and still make the Crescent and Meteor connections. But not too much. It would arrive in NYP very late though.

Personally I don’t see a problem for an overnight connection. Like how Sunset Limited connect the Cresent at New Orleans.

I think a fine tuned timetable for major cities along the route for each train would maximize the profit for itself. While through-way passengers that needs connections would not mind much of one overnight connection during their 3-4 days trip and would most likely do the entire trip anyway.

 

[zephyr17]

That kills the well known network effect. It would probably be okay for those on 3 or 4 day transcontinental journeys you cite, but most passengers go much shorter distances. Omaha to Indianapolis, for example.

 

[coventry801]

That kills the well known network effect. It would probably be okay for those on transcontinental journeys, but most passengers go much shorter distances. Omaha to Indianapolis, for example.

Valid point. The same applies to those traveling between Houston, TX and Birmingham, AL/Atlanta, GA that need to make connection at New Orleans LA, or those traveling between LAX and SLC that needs to make connection at SAC.

One set of train / time table can't really meet 100% traveling needs. We need more trains.

 

[zephyr17]

Valid point. The same applies to those traveling between Houston, TX and Birmingham, AL/Atlanta, GA that need to make connection and New Orleans LA, or those traveling between LAX and SLC that needs to make connection and SAC.

One set of train / time table can't really meet 100% traveling needs. We need more trains.

Basically agree. I think all, or almost all LDs should have a roughly 12 hour off sister train. Many railroads had secondary trains running about 12 hours off their premier train right up to the end (GN's Western Star for example
And the Western Star was a pretty nice train). It could also improve the bottom line (more capacity to spread the high fixed costs over).

I'm not holding my breath, though.

While New Orleans could be a real connection point, as you point out, it isn't precisely due to the overnight requirement to do it. Chicago is a well and long established major connection point. I don't want to break what connections we have.

 

[Cal]

Create shortcuts to each one.
I just bookmarked one on my phone.

Me too, and it's not that hard to type in amtrak.com/routename-train, I've gotten quite good at it.

 

[Cal]

Personally I don’t see a problem for an overnight connection. Like how Sunset Limited connect the Cresent at New Orleans.

Arrow won't let you make that connection, you would have to make two separate reservations, which is a problem.

 

[Ryan]

Me too, and it's not that hard to type in amtrak.com/routename-train, I've gotten quite good at it.

Or you can navigate to it with 4 easy and obvious clicks.

 

[BarbW]

The proposed schedule above has 50 and 51 going through the New River Gorge in the dark year round. No chance of seeing the scenery of West Virginia or the bridge as you go under it. For anyone who has ever taken the Cardinal, or heard about it from someone who has, the river and gorge landscapes are a big feature. So, too, is the narrative provided by volunteers as you travel this section. You can drive from DC to Chicago, or take a plane. But you won't see any of this from anywhere but the Cardinal.

 

[Cal]

Or you can navigate to it with 4 easy and obvious clicks.

I can get to it much easier by typing it in, rather than waiting for amtrak.com to load.

 

[zephyr17]

Arrow won't let you make that connection, you would have to make two separate reservations, which is a problem.

You can put it on the same reservation using the multi-city option, but there are good reasons to have separate reservations. Like if the conductor doesn't scan your ticket, your second segment doesn't get cancelled.

It used to have that connection, btw. It just warned you it was the next day and any hotel would be at your own expense.

 

[jiml]

Arrow won't let you make that connection, you would have to make two separate reservations, which is a problem.

You sure about that? It doesn't seem to be a problem booking Houston to Atlanta (and multiple other options) without using Multi-city or anything beyond entering various end-points on either route.

 

[zephyr17]

You sure about that? It doesn't seem to be a problem booking Houston to Atlanta (and multiple other options) without using Multi-city or anything beyond entering various end-points on either route.

View attachment 22543

Probably a city pair that hadn't been entered into ARROW. All valid connections have to be manually entered into ARROW. It isn't algorithmic, or even train 2 and 20 connect. Each city pair, individually. With the Cardinal schedule change they probably all had to be redone. Perhaps the one Cal was using hadn't been entered yet.