Capitol Limited & Lake Shore Limited Delays Summer/Fall 2014

[terry cripe]

Tuesday night's #30 stopped about 7:30pm. The conductor said that 5 freights were trying to get into the Elkart yards and that the next thirty miles would be slow-going. It was stop and go all the way to Elkhart. After that, we were still apparently following one or more freights because the speed did not pick up appreciably. 8 hours late getting into Waterloo. I heard a number of first-time Amtrak travelers say, "Never again."

Terry

 

[neroden]

The problem apparently is Chicago and congestion in getting trains across Chicago, causing crews to time out on main lines stalling trains blocking everything. As soon as they are able to decongest Chicago things will start moving again I am told.

Haven't we known about Chicago congestion since, um, before 2003, when the CREATE taskforce was formed by Mayor Daley? http://www.createprogram.org/about.htm
Maybe if the Class Is had invested more of their own money, they'd have cleared some of the problems by now....

 

[reppin_the_847]

Looks like the Eastbound Capital Limited & Lakeshore Limited trains are having some difficulty getting into Elkhart early this morning Sept. 25th (or late night depending on how you look at it).

 

[JoeZeppy412]

CL 30 6 hours down - announcing bustituitions in PGH to make connections

 

[jis]

The problem apparently is Chicago and congestion in getting trains across Chicago, causing crews to time out on main lines stalling trains blocking everything. As soon as they are able to decongest Chicago things will start moving again I am told.

Haven't we known about Chicago congestion since, um, before 2003, when the CREATE taskforce was formed by Mayor Daley? http://www.createprogram.org/about.htm
Maybe if the Class Is had invested more of their own money, they'd have cleared some of the problems by now....

Moreover, they could get some ideas from the FAA ATC's "flow control" wherein certain departures are withheld until congestion down line clears. The railroads in their dispatching systems are still stuck somewhere in the mid 20th century. Just because their trains do not fall out of the sky if they cannot find yard space for it, they are just outright undisciplined and careless in planning crew assignments and train flows.
For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.

Yes, there are those odd corner cases where a congestion screwup becomes inevitable and you deal with it. But that should hardly be the normal everyday mode of operation.

 

[tommylicious]

well said jis!

 

[afigg]

For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.

What I am not clear on is whether there are still seasonal track work chokepoints that are also a factor or is it just a complete meltdown of the current system due to growth in traffic, poor dispatching, and too much cutting of staffing levels and track capacity?

For the record, here is what a NS meltdown results in:

CL #30 (9/23) arrived at WAS 10:45 PM ET, 9 hours and 35 minutes late.

LSL #48 (9/23) departed CLE 8 hours and 8 minutes late, arrived at NYP at 4:33 AM ET, 10 hours and 10 minutes late. But, hey, in time to beat the morning rush hour!

 

[Trollopian]

"NS meltdown" is right. That's why this loyal railfan is reluctantly driving, rather than taking the train, from Pittsburgh to DC tomorrow....though the train is greener, prettier, competitively priced, stress-free, and convenient (I live in or near both cities' downtowns). Just hopelessly unreliable.

I wish we could get some clear answers as to whether the delays (which are clearly clustered on NS segments in IND and, to a lesser extent, OH) are seasonal or the "new normal."

 

[JoeZeppy412]

Adding insult to injury, after arriving in PGH at 11:30 am, we stood in an empty station, not an employee in sight and no idea where they were, or even if there was one, for a half hour waiting for our luggage to be released to us. Apparently they were all upstairs transferring luggage for the bustituitions.

Once again a total lack of information or communication. Are they actively trying to drive business away?

 

[tommylicious]

bustitution has got to be the worst!

 

[BuzzKillington]

We still have several crude oil refineries to open and expand yet on the East Coast. I think the traffic is just going to get worse.

 

[neroden]

Moreover, they could get some ideas from the FAA ATC's "flow control" wherein certain departures are withheld until congestion down line clears. The railroads in their dispatching systems are still stuck somewhere in the mid 20th century. Just because their trains do not fall out of the sky if they cannot find yard space for it, they are just outright undisciplined and careless in planning crew assignments and train flows.

For example, the problem last night was at Elkhart apparently because they had stuffed it full of trains that could not depart towards Chicago, so that they had no space to receive trains from Chicago. I guess very few of the dispatchers ever heard of the Dining Philosophers problem or the general concept of deadlocks and how to avoid them. And this is when they supposedly have full control of the system from a single point of control. One shudders to think what they'd bring unto themselves if they really had distributed control like the ATC system does.

Yes, there are those odd corner cases where a congestion screwup becomes inevitable and you deal with it. But that should hardly be the normal everyday mode of operation.

Well said.

The mid-19th century solution for this sort of situation (remember, centralization wasn't an option with slow communications....) was a little harsh, but it worked: they would simply lift the excess freight cars sitting at the yard off the rails and drop 'em in the grass, in order to make room for the arrivals.

Well before it came to that point, railroads would decline business if they couldn't handle it -- a concept which seems to be alien to BNSF and NS right now. Why are they accepting any new ladings of non-time-sensitive freight? They have an entire procedure known as the "blockade" precisely for the purpose of refusing new business while they clear a disruption -- why aren't they using it? There seems to be some sort of gross incompetence at the executive level.

 

[tommylicious]

i wonder if there were to be an investigation of internal railroad communications whether it would reveal a deliberate, repeated campaign to sabotage Amtrak performance.

 

[montana mike]

I hope that would not be the case. It would look like to me just plain old utter and complete incompetence!!!

 

[Eric S]

What's the expression? Something like "Don't attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[montana mike]

#49 now almost 7 hours behind and barely moving at all in eastern Indiana, looks like they will lose considerably more time before finally arriving this evening in CHI--likely 8+ hours late--wow!! It doesn't look like anything has been "fixed" on this route does it.

This seems to be way more than the "usual" congestion, since this is now the second time this week a meltdown has occurred in this area.

Bummer.

PS--The CL also appears to be very late as well, stuck in the same vicinity as the LSL

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Do they ever bus passengers from somewhere in IN or even OH to catch up to the other trains if they think they'll miss connections in CHI?

 

[jis]

They have done busing between Toledo and Chicago in the recent past.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

They have done busing between Toledo and Chicago in the recent past.

Good to hear. I will be switching to a roomette in Toledo....maybe. I'd rather make my connection than be in a roomette worrying if I'll make my connection.

 

[jis]

They turned a very late LSL in Toledo and bused between Toledo and Chicago.

 

[greatcats]

I am not saying anything brilliant, but I am disgusted by these huge delays east of Chicago and wonder what my trip east will be like next May. Much of this is not the fault of Amtrak, but the result is a disgrace, as bad if not worse than the performance of 7 and 8. B

 

[montana mike]

Good Point. I follow #7 and #8 closely, since I ride that train frequently, but next month I am "connecting" to the LSL and it looks like my connections may indeed be a crap shoot at best. I have taken the LSL before and found it to be reasonably close to on time in both directions, but that was a couple years ago. I agree with the other comments that the railroads have been incredibly shortsighted in this regard. I would imagine their freight customers are screaming even louder than the poor pax for Amtrak.

:-(

 

[afigg]

Do they ever bus passengers from somewhere in IN or even OH to catch up to the other trains if they think they'll miss connections in CHI?

I was on a westbound #49 LSL that was bused from Toledo to Chicago. But that was not to make connections in CHI as we arrived at CHI after 11 PM, over 13 hours late. They turned the LSL around at Toledo so as to be able to maintain the schedule for the eastbound LSL departing that night. The reason for the that turnaround was not a meltdown on the NS tracks in OH & IN, although we lost a lot of time getting from CLE to TOL, but a contractor caused rock slide on the Metro-North Hudson River tracks that blocked traffic for over 6 hours.

After easing up a bit on Thursday (9/25), the NS route in IN and OH is back to full meltdown again today. #29 and #49 (9/25) look to 7+ hours late to CHI, which mean late departures tonight if Amtrak doesn't throw in the towel and annul the trains for a day to catch up.

#30(9/25) departed CHI 1 hour and 21 minutes late, CLE 5 hours and 5 minutes late, and is enroute over 6 hours late at CUM. Connections to the Crescent and Meteor are at risk unless they bused people from Pittsburgh. #48(9/25) has departed Rochester 5 hours and 46 minutes late.

Has gotten just plain ugly for the 2 main NEC to Chicago LD trains. When does this get better and back to normal?

 

[neroden]

I think it would be faster if both trains were routinely detoured via the Michigan Line. Ahem.

The delays are mostly between Toledo and Porter, amirite?

 

[Orangesaint]

I am very close to cancelling to cross-country trip in December. I haven't taken a lengthy train ride in six years, and was looking forward to this. But how can one sit here and actually make a vacation plan via Amtrak. Being from Upstate NY, the LSL is a train that I will always need to book in some capacity if I want to go west. Perhaps the CL, but that's no different with this unreliability.

"It's not Amtrak's fault". Look, I get that. Repeating that over and over as I now in a coach seat on the Southwest Chief because I lost the roomette I booked when I missed the connection on the day I was supposed to take the SC because the LSL was late; is not going to make things better. I am still in coach because of this, Amtrak's fault or not, roomette refunded or not, and therefore my vacation is ruined. The train ride here, is the vacation. Does Amtrak even get that aspect of why people may ride a train anymore? They may in their commercials, but in reality what I see is anything but.

Will Amtrak bus me if the LSL is late, from Toledo (for example) to Chicago, or to Naperville so I can get on the Southwest Chief I belong on? If I could have assurance that they would, I would feel so much better. It would be very relieving right now, if you could click something somewhere on Amtrak.com to find out if they are busing people today. Then today, I am breathing a sigh of relief that Amtrak cared enough, instead of wondering what the heck has happened to the passengers on today's trains. But you can't find that information anywhere. So therefore I am concerned. That concern IS Amtrak's fault. This forum right here is the only place I can find any kind of reliable information.

Call Amtrak? Tried that yesterday for something else. "You're call will be answered in approximately 24 minutes." For an hour. And never the call picked up.

Sorry for the vent, but knowing something was not Amtrak's fault does not automatically make someone's vacation ok. Amtrak could be more open about what they do for people, and showing what they are doing; instead of making us all wonder "what happened today". And if "what happened today" will happen when its "my train."