Cardinal sleepers

[winterskigirl]

Does anyone know when there will be more sleeper cars added to the Cardinal #50/#51? I have heard there is only one which would explain the high prices on roomettes.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Does anyone know when there will be more sleeper cars added to the Cardinal #50/#51? I have heard there is only one which would explain the high prices on roomettes.

When the Under Construction Viewliner IIs are placed in Service the Card should get another Viewliner and Hopefully a real Diner as Well! Of course a Daily Schedule would be Ideal but not gonna happen due to Costs and Lack of Equipment!

 

[jis]

Does anyone know when there will be more sleeper cars added to the Cardinal #50/#51? I have heard there is only one which would explain the high prices on roomettes.

When the Under Construction Viewliner IIs are placed in Service the Card should get another Viewliner and Hopefully a real Diner as Well! Of course a Daily Schedule would be Ideal but not gonna happen due to Costs and Lack of Equipment!

Once the new Viewliners come in it should be possible to scarf together a third consist. The real holdup will be completion of siding lengthening on BBRR, which will take several years from now.

 

[dlagrua]

We have been trying to book a trip on the Cardinal in a sleeper for quite some time, but the prices have been prohibitive. When you see $816 bedrooms and $600 roomettes, its a turn off. Those prices are way beyond a good value level.

The problem is not only that they have only one sleeper car on that train but the crew uses about 1/2 the roomettes for their own use. That leaves only about 8 total sleeper units for paying customers. Those sleeper units never sell at anything close to low bucket so for $600-$800 you get the same bedroom or roomette that you can buy on the Capitol Limited for $$170-$247 (at low bucket) and you get an abbreviated food menu served in the "diner lite"; a glorified café car without a chef. This train not only needs a dining car, it could use two more sleepers and they would sell out at more reasonable price levels. There is pent up demand for this scenic route, but it is cost prohibitive right now. Hope that 2014 brings a larger consist. We would really like to take a trip on it next year.

 

[winterskigirl]

Wow. I'm beginning to wonder if it's really worth going this route if there's only 1 sleeper and the diner is sub-par.

Has anyone been on the Cardinal, Capitol Ltd., and Lake Shore Ltd. to compare value to scenery? What would you recommend between Chicago and points east? And why?

 

[the_traveler]

I agree the extra cost is not worth it. The only 3 times I've taken the Cardinal I used AGR points.

 

[Linda T]

We have been trying to book a trip on the Cardinal in a sleeper for quite some time, but the prices have been prohibitive. When you see $816 bedrooms and $600 roomettes, its a turn off. Those prices are way beyond a good value level.The problem is not only that they have only one sleeper car on that train but the crew uses about 1/2 the roomettes for their own use. That leaves only about 8 total sleeper units for paying customers. Those sleeper units never sell at anything close to low bucket so for $600-$800 you get the same bedroom or roomette that you can buy on the Capitol Limited for $$170-$247 (at low bucket) and you get an abbreviated food menu served in the "diner lite"; a glorified café car without a chef. This train not only needs a dining car, it could use two more sleepers and they would sell out at more reasonable price levels. There is pent up demand for this scenic route, but it is cost prohibitive right now. Hope that 2014 brings a larger consist. We would really like to take a trip on it next year.

Are you saying $600 round trip? Cause I'm seeing both the LSL and CARD (both viewliners) with roomettes on July 20th for $481. So I don't think it's just a lack of viewliner sleepers cause the LSL has more than one. The CAP for the same day is $260, course it's a superliner.

 

[zephyr17]

The new Viewliner order also includes the Bag/Dorms. So the crew should no longer use the revenue sleeper when those arrive, so even if they don't add a second sleeper, there will still be more space available.

The scenery on the Cardinal is about the best in the East. But the train itself is nothing to shout about.

 

[Ryan]

Supply and demand. There's more demand on the LSL because it takes less.

The Cardinal is much more valuable to the communities that it serves that have no other train service (and is priced accordingly - journeys of less than full length are much more reasonably priced).

 

[dlagrua]

Here a re-check on the Cardinal sleeper prices and a correction for the high bucket fares that often apply.

Bedroom NYP-CHI $962.00

Roomette NYP-CHI $412.00

I checked some peak times and came up with the above so it looks as though I was high on the roomettes and low on the Bedroom but really now is a roomette worth a $412.00 add on? We can afford these fares but refuse to pay them as it doesn't meet our value standard. The Cardinal fares are just not worth it for a trip to Chicago that we can get on the CL for less than half and with better food. I guess those NYC based trains can charge exorbitant prices and get away with it. As Ryan said supply and demand applies here.

 

[Ryan]

I guess those NYC based trains can charge exorbitant prices and get away with it.

The fact that you can't buy a room on the Cardinal for the next month suggests that, if anything, the prices are too low.

 

[Phil S]

Prices are only too low if the goal of Amtrak is to make money. If its goal is to provide good service at a reasonable price, then you don't just go upping the price because there are a few people who are willing and able to pay it. Why not just set bridge tolls high enough so that there are no traffic jams at rush hours? Obviously it's because people need to get to jobs and so we don't want to price transportation out of people's reach.

 

[chakk]

I would think that Amtrak would design their fare structure so that the total revenue obtained from a fully-booked sleeping car would be at least equal to the total revenue from a fully booked coach on the same train.

 

[Phil S]

FWIW -- there's a bedroom available tomorrow night from White Sulfur all the way to Chicago for $253. A huge last-minute bargain. It's not available from ST or CVS. But of course there's room in coach from NYP to WSS. Might even be able to make dinner after moving to sleeper.

 

[user 1215]

Once the new Viewliners come in it should be possible to scarf together a third consist. The real holdup will be completion of siding lengthening on BBRR, which will take several years from now.

There is really no need for this to take "years". Just money. Seems like everyone who use the BBRR wants capacity improved. Now just to pony up the cash.

 

[the_traveler]

The big trouble with the BBRR is that it is used mostly for directional running. Coal trains moving east use a different route. These same coal trains return west on the same route that the Cardinal uses. And an eastbound Cardinal and a westbound coal train can't use the same single track very easily.

So until they improve the passing sidings, you won't see much improvement.

 

[DET63]

And an eastbound Cardinal and a westbound coal train can't use the same single track very easily.

Maybe they can arrange a double saw-by.

If they do, I'm sure the_traveler will be there.

 

[afigg]

There is really no need for this to take "years". Just money. Seems like everyone who use the BBRR wants capacity improved. Now just to pony up the cash.

Adding to what jis wrote, the only operator really interested in capacity improvements on the BBRR is Amtrak. CSX and BBRR are satisfied with the track setup, although BBRR probably would not mind having a long siding for the CSX 8000' long empty coal trains as long as someone else is picking up most of the tab for it.
Fortunately Virginia set up a Shortline Railway Preservation program to help keep the short line tracks in working order. Currently funded at around $10 million a year total (in state funds) if I'm interpreting the FY2014 Six year budget plan correctly. Virginia's primary reason for providing track improvement and maintenance funding to the shortlines, CSX, and NS is help to keep the ports at Hampton Roads, Norfolk competitive. If the BBRR were in WV, might be a very different story in getting significant state support for maintenance and upgrades.

In the FY2014 and FY2015 budget plans, the Shortline program for the North Mountain Siding Project is providing $4.9 million total ($2.45M per year) for the 70% portion with $2.1 million from private or other sources. With around $10 million a year from the state for the Shortline program, $2.45 million is a significant chunk. Whether the siding project and the other track and signal improvement projects for the BBRR are expected to be completed by end CY 2015, don't know.

The Viewliner IIs are projected to start entering revenue service by the Spring of 2014 and complete delivery by the end of 2015. So by sometime in late 2014 or in 2015, the Cardinal should get more sleeper capacity and have a better trip on the BBRR portion of the route.

 

[Phil S]

Posted today on TO:

Date: 06/09/13 09:49

Re: CN cuts over Chicago Trackage to CSX tonight
Author: amt207

PRIIA expires, according to Senator Coat's office as a condition of partial renewal of Amtrak's next 5 year authorization the "long-distance" Cardinal will be turned into a "Regional" turning next day at Charleston or Huntington.

INDOT has said it will not fund the Hoosier State because it "loses" money.
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Comments?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Prices are only too low if the goal of Amtrak is to make money. If its goal is to provide good service at a reasonable price, then you don't just go upping the price because there are a few people who are willing and able to pay it. Why not just set bridge tolls high enough so that there are no traffic jams at rush hours? Obviously it's because people need to get to jobs and so we don't want to price transportation out of people's reach.

Which brings up the 42+ year multiple choice question: Is Amtrak's goal to: a)make money; b)pay for itself; c)provide a largely publicly funded public transportation service; d)none of the above; or e)all of the above, because Amtrak is a politcal football animal?

 

[Nathanael]

The shortage of Viewliners is a very serious issue for Amtrak.

The Cardinal is going to get a baggage-dorm as soon as one is available. This will more than double the number of rooms for sale and should bring the prices down substantially, while making more money for Amtrak (since the prices will probably fall to only, say, 60% of existing prices).

If demand is still high after that, it may get another sleeper, though I'm sure that daily service would be the preferred option if CSX and Buckingham Branch can be made to agree. (However, Amtrak hasn't actually ordered enough baggage-dorms for daily Cardinal service with desired shop counts. IMO, the option on the CAF order for more bag-dorms should be exercised.)

The Lake Shore Limited has similarly high prices and high demand through three seasons of the year (winter is weaker). It's also going to get a baggage-dorm, but that will only increase the room supply by about 20%. So as I have said before, the Lake Shore Limited is probably going to get another Viewliner sleeper when the Viewliner IIs arrive. (Perhaps not in winter, when I am told the Florida trains have their peak ridership but everything else has lowest ridership.)

Allocation of the new cars is something I'm quite curious about. The Crescent probably needs another sleeper but only from NY to Atlanta; from south of Atlanta it already has more cars than it needs. If anyone ever manages to build a new Atlanta station for Amtrak, with storage track facilities, that would free up some cars.

 

[Linda T]

Posted today on TO:

Date: 06/09/13 09:49

Re: CN cuts over Chicago Trackage to CSX tonight

Author: amt207

PRIIA expires, according to Senator Coat's office as a condition of partial renewal of Amtrak's next 5 year authorization the "long-distance" Cardinal will be turned into a "Regional" turning next day at Charleston or Huntington.
INDOT has said it will not fund the Hoosier State because it "loses" money.
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Comments?

Unfortunately, the link only took me to a user name, not to the actual post/article. So they're saying IN won't fund the Hoosier State so the 50/51 would only run NYP to HUN or CSW. When would this potentially take place? I thought they could only turn the train in CIN or CVS. At least that's what Amtrak's always said.

 

[Ryan]

Here's the thread in question.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3095185

I wouldn't put any stock in what some random person on the internet is saying.

 

[Nathanael]

The only actual facts in that thread were:

(1) CSX is taking over dispatching of the former Grand Truck Western line between "Maynard" and "Harvey" in Chicago, which was formerly dispatched by CN. The Cardinal/Hoosier state uses this line from "Maynard" to "Thornton Junction", where it switches to UP. CSX already dispatches from Maynard all the way to Clifton Forge in WV. This change therefore reduces the number of dispatcher handoffs on the Cardinal/Hoosier State by one, and might therefore improve on-time performance for the Cardinal/Hoosier State.

(2) US Senator Dan Coats's office has some sort of opinion regarding Amtrak, and may plan to attempt put that opinion into future legislation. The author amt207 is so confused that nothing more than that is clear about the Senator's position. If you care, it would probably be best to call Senator Coats and ask for his position.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Here's the thread in question.http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3095185

I wouldn't put any stock in what some random person on the internet is saying.

'Wow, there's a bunch of half-baked information on that thread.