Carolinian 80(9) Grade Crossing accident

[fairviewroad]

So far, it sounds like the state trooper on the scene failed his responsibility to stop the train.

No, it doesn't sound like that. We don't know enough to say whether or not the trooper tried to alert the railroad, or how much

time elapsed before the trooper arrived on scene until the train arrived. Maybe the cop called right away, and it was the railroad that dropped

the ball in terms of alerting the engineer in time. (See, I just cast aspersions on someone else entirely, also without any evidence!)

 

[niemi24s]

Q: Which two consecutive stations on any Amtrak route have the most grade crossings between them?

Worthy of a thread of its own.

Oh, I don't really think so. Only reason I did the Richmond to Jacksonville look-see was because I kind of enjoy taking trips along the tracks with my "Google Earth ultralight airplane". But the question posed above was just a rhetorical one. That's because to figure out a definite answer, I think all possibilities would have to be explored. And with about 880 stations spread out over all the different routes that task would be huge gargantuan! Perhaps only suitable for someone who's young and serving a life sentence - with keen vision.

 

[john h]

Could technology help here, lets say a censor that puts a right light on the tracks if a vehicle is on the tracks more than say 30 secs?

No one should even be stopped on railroad tracks more than 10 secs even if theres a traffic light you just don't stop on the tracks

 

[xyzzy]

Update from today's southbound Auto train:

Departed Lorton a bit before 9 p.m. last night. Normal running should have placed he A-T at the "incident" site around 12:30 a.m.

Delays encountered north of Halifax. Passed Halifax around 3:00 a.m.

Track opened about 2:30 am, so 53 would have been one of (if not the first) southbound through. Doesn't surprise me that 91 and 97 were annulled. By that time every stretch of second track between Collier Yard and accident site would have had a freight sitting in it. I suppose all three trains could have closed together just north of the accident site but that would have been risky if the track took longer to reopen than forecasted.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Then, let's throw a little technology at the problem. It shouldn't take much invention. Using standard burglar alarm technology, let's include infrared monitoring at all passenger rail grade crossings. If a solid object remains on the rail for, say, 15 seconds or more, an alert would be sent to a dispatcher. Any junior engineer with ADT ought to be able to devise this. It ought to have been included in the PTC program, though I've never heard of that. For every sleeping engineer's overspeed accident, there seem to be a dozen of these crossing mishaps occurring.

Will it cost money? Of course, but probably less than we spend in placing closed-circuit cameras into mini-marts.

How big of a solid object? The size of a person? Car? House? A bird? A Plane? ...

That doesn't prevent the very slow solid object from getting on the tracks just before the train gets there. And what do you think will happen when kids or even vandals or thieves discover that all they have to do to stop the train is to stand in the middle of the track, holding up their hand in the stop position. Imagine the photo-op, let alone the thefts.

Consider the physics of the matter. Consider a mile-long freight train moving at 60 mph. It'll take about a mile to stop. That means the crossing needs to be kept clear once the train enters the last mile. In order to do that, the gates need to start operating. Now at that speed, it will also take the train 1 full minute to reach the crossing, let alone traverse it. Do you think John Q. Public will want to sit at the crossing a full minute before the train even gets there, and then however long it takes for the train to go by?

The answer is no. That's why there is no clear grade crossing feature in PTC.

jb

 

[FormerOBS]

Any system that alerts a train to the presence of an obstruction on the tracks, would have to alert the engine crew at least 60 - 90 seconds in advance. if the obstruction is present for 10 -15 seconds, it could likely clear the crossing within 30 - 45 more seconds. Meanwhile, the engineer has initiated an emergency brake application for nothing. Once he/she has done that, the train WILL stop. There is no changing your mind. An emergency stop will put stress on every part of the running gear of the train, and in extreme cases can result in a derailment. The train cannot safely resume its journey until it has been inspected. In the case of a long freight train, this means the engineer stays in the cab while the conductor walks to the rear of the train and then walks back to the front on the opposite side. Modern freight trains are often well over a mile in length. Then the train line must be recharged with air to release the brakes. If the obstruction is detected less than 60 - 90 seconds before impact, there may be no reason to slow or stop the train anyway because the collision may be inevitable. If that happened every time some driver cuts it close, the RR system would be nearly crippled with unnecessary stops. Yes, the problem is that widespread. The solution is not to stop the train from doing what trains do. The solution is to keep vehicular traffic off the tracks where they don't belong.

NO MACHINE CAN COMPENSATE FOR POOR JUDGMENT.

Tom

 

[jis]

Amtrak P42 #185 after re-railing:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522514

 

[john h]

FormerOBS, thanks for your thoughts from the average driver I had no idea all of that was involved

Anyway can you share your thoughts on the system they use in Connecticut?

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/Sensors-on-Connecticut-Amtrak-Line-Alerts-Trains-to-Vehicles-on-Track-290850911.html

 

[FormerOBS]

I don't have any knowledge or experience with the system in Connecticut, so it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment. However, it seems to me that any system that alerts the train in time, will probably block the crossing for a longer time than many drivers will tolerate. Probably at least 90 - 120 seconds.

I did not edit the above post, even though it says I did. The system would not accept my edits. I was going to add that the inspection of a train after an emergency stop would be seriously complicated by such additional factors as pitch darkness, snow/sleet/rain storms, etc. Of course, the conductor would have additional problems if part of the train is in a tunnel, stretched out on a bridge, or in a high crime area.

Tom

 

[FormerOBS]

Again, my last post was not edited because the system wouldn't accept my changes. (??????)

I was going to add that there was a very good, thorough discussion of these "smart" grade crossing issues on the Kalmbach Publishing Co., Trains Magazine forum after the Valhalla, NY collision a couple weeks ago.

To

 

[Ryan]

Ahh - but Ryan didn't state in which direction he was off by an order of magnitude. He COULD have meant there were 2,500 crossings!

Actually, that is the direction I was talking about. Thinking about it a little more analytically, 2500 crossings in 600+ miles would mean a crossing every 1/4 mile, which is obviously way too high.

Even 500 seems way too low to me, when you account for private crossings (the original comment didn't specify crossings protected by gates and flashing lights).

Amtrak P42 #185 after re-railing:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522514

Looks like that'll buff right out.

 

[jis]

Amtrak P42 #185 after re-railing:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522514

Looks like that'll buff right out.

Looks like it bounced around a bit on soft ground and did not hit any immovable solid object while at it.

 

[me_little_me]

Any system that alerts a train to the presence of an obstruction on the tracks, would have to alert the engine crew at least 60 - 90 seconds in advance. if the obstruction is present for 10 -15 seconds, it could likely clear the crossing within 30 - 45 more seconds. Meanwhile, the engineer has initiated an emergency brake application for nothing. Once he/she has done that, the train WILL stop. There is no changing your mind. An emergency stop will put stress on every part of the running gear of the train, and in extreme cases can result in a derailment. The train cannot safely resume its journey until it has been inspected. In the case of a long freight train, this means the engineer stays in the cab while the conductor walks to the rear of the train and then walks back to the front on the opposite side. Modern freight trains are often well over a mile in length. Then the train line must be recharged with air to release the brakes. If the obstruction is detected less than 60 - 90 seconds before impact, there may be no reason to slow or stop the train anyway because the collision may be inevitable. If that happened every time some driver cuts it close, the RR system would be nearly crippled with unnecessary stops. Yes, the problem is that widespread. The solution is not to stop the train from doing what trains do. The solution is to keep vehicular traffic off the tracks where they don't belong.

NO MACHINE CAN COMPENSATE FOR POOR JUDGMENT.

Tom

Your assumption is based on whether or not the train can completely stop in time to avoid an accident. But given that there is a detector that senses a large object (vehicle) inside the gates once the gates begin to come down, would not an immediate signal to the train to initiate a non-emergency stop at least reduce the effects of the impending crash? It may not save the idiot blocking or running the gates but could mitigate engine, engineer and passenger damage.

 

[afigg]

Oh, I don't really think so. Only reason I did the Richmond to Jacksonville look-see was because I kind of enjoy taking trips along the tracks with my "Google Earth ultralight airplane". But the question posed above was just a rhetorical one. That's because to figure out a definite answer, I think all possibilities would have to be explored. And with about 880 stations spread out over all the different routes that task would be huge gargantuan! Perhaps only suitable for someone who's young and serving a life sentence - with keen vision.

Or get route data and write a database query program to examine the extensive FRA database on road-rail grade crossings and compare it to the route to determine how many public and private grade crossings are on the route. The FRA's Office of Saferty Analysis provide very detailed information and statistics on grade crossings, accidents, injuires, going back many years on this webpage. Or ask Amtrak, but I suspect they won't be inclined to provide detailed stats on grade crossings on their routes, because they rather not play aspect that up.

As for the grade crossing where this incident occurred, the crossing ID is 629659J. Using the query feature to pull up accident reports for the crossing, there have been 5 reported accidents since 1977. The most recent was in 2005 with a 62 car long CSX freight train, hitting the trailer of an empty vehicle that was stopped on the crossing. Going further back, on November 4, 1977 at 4:30 PM, a 8 car long Amtrak train hit a, there is a theme here, vehicle that was stopped on the crossing. There are 2 reports for the 1977 incident, one from Amtrak and another from Seaboard Coast Line RR.

Not many collisions over a 38 year period, but still, 4 out of the 5 are listed as vehicles stopped on the crossing, 1 is listed as driver driving around the lowered gates (in 1984, somehow no injuries).

 

[FormerOBS]

To "me...."

Yes, it might lessen the severity of the collision. But the fact remains, it's up to the automobile driver to ensure that he doesn't stall, get stuck, park, run out of gas, stop for a smoke, drive off the road and onto the track, pause to kiss his girlfriend, make a three-point turn, or do any other things of that kind on the crossing. The ultimate responsibility has to be up to the driver because of the basic principles of physics.

As for the number of crossings, I think I once heard that the number of crossings on the Auto Train route was close to one per mile. I'm sure that number has been reduced since I heard that number.

Tom

 

[nanavc]

I live in Lakeland it wasn't the 92 that hit the pedestrian it was a freight and she was texting ,walked around the gates and into the side of the train. Compund fracture to her arm and injury to her leg. Story here... 8.wfla.com/1HvD54a

 

[niemi24s]

Even 500 seems way too low to me, when you account for private crossings (the original comment didn't specify crossings protected by gates and flashing lights).

I counted every place along the tracks that looked like a place where a wheeled vehicle could get across without too much difficulty - even the crude ones allowing farm machinery to get across from one field to another or a dirt road that just leads to a farm house. I suspect things like dirt bikes and ATV's don't need anything fancy to get across as long as it's not in the middle of a bridge, for instance. But there's probably a million different places along the route where they could. There are a fair number of paces on Google Earth that appear to be some sort of grade crossing at first glance, but a closer look reveals many of them to be merely a place where two roads approach each other on opposite sides of the track but don't connect. Maybe there had been a grade crossing at some of these locations in the past, but zooming in reveals nothing but fresh ballast, ties and rails.

And I'm not claiming to have found 100% of them or to have accurately recorded those I did find for later addition. The only ones not included in the 510 total were those in yards appearing to be for use by railroad vehicles - not the general public.

If you've got three spare hours to fritter away, why not open up Google Earth and see how many you can find?

 

[fairviewroad]

If you've got three spare hours to fritter away, why not open up Google Earth and see how many you can find?

Or buy a ticket and listen very, very carefully to the whistle patterns!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The oversized cargo is my issue. Too many big supersized items moving on the highways that don't need to be there. House and commerical building. Cheaper to build in a factory and then drive it the to site. But really no reason to be a supersized load other than greed.

That load could of been on several normal size flat bed truck. Sure it cost more to put together, but much safer to transport.

Ever see a telecom shelter on a truck. The sides are overhanging, but there is space in front and in back of it. No good reason at all. You could make it no wider than the truck and just make it longer.

Greed before Safety.

 

[RampWidget]

I live in Lakeland it wasn't the 92 that hit the pedestrian it was a freight and she was texting ,walked around the gates and into the side of the train. Compund fracture to her arm and injury to her leg. Story here... 8.wfla.com/1HvD54a

nanavc, you are correct. 92(9) was delayed behind the freight train involved in the pedestrian incident, not directly involved in the incident. Thanks for catching my oversight.

 

[RampWidget]

Southbound Auto Train is now in the vicinity of Jesup, GA, approx. 3 hours from Sanford.

So theoretically they could have run 91 and 97 too. They'd have had to bustitute ORL - Tampa.
I still wonder how they are going to get the consists in the right place. Presumably 92 and 98 on 3/11 will be canceled?

52(10) ETD SFA 1100p (7 hr L)

53(10) dp LOR 500p (1 hr L)

89(10) 1 hr 25 mn L by YEM

90(10) originated FLO, operating on schedule

91(10) operating on schedule

97(10) operating on schedule

98(11) operate as scheduled out of MIA - with what consist, I have not heard

92(11) will operate as scheduled out of MIA - ditto

 

[jis]

Maybe the ferried empty consists south? They definitely had enough time to do so.

 

[FormerOBS]

Northbound Auto Train began boarding shortly after 10:30 EDT.

 

[ehbowen]

Could technology help here, lets say a censor that puts a right light on the tracks if a vehicle is on the tracks more than say 30 secs?

No one should even be stopped on railroad tracks more than 10 secs even if theres a traffic light you just don't stop on the tracks

If we did put a sensor on the tracks, and the word got out, the amount of time before yahoos began parking on the tracks and daring the train to stop could probably be most conveniently measured in minutes.

Unless, perhaps, we coupled it with a "Stop here and lose your license and your car/truck/semi" camera. Now, that's a thought.

 

[Jordan Knapp (VirginiaR..)]

Hey! Thats my Photo!! lol

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522514
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=522510
(Photos Courtesy of Myself)