Cars to be rebuilt

[jis]

The design is good. M-K's build quality was the main failing.

+1 Agreed.

 

[AlanB]

The design is good. M-K's build quality was the main failing.

+1 Agreed.

The question in my mind that needs to be asked though is, was the build quality poor because of M-K? Or was it poor because Amtrak low balled things and requested lower quality materials?

If the latter, here's hoping that they won't make that same mistake this time.

 

[jis]

The question in my mind that needs to be asked though is, was the build quality poor because of M-K? Or was it poor because Amtrak low balled things and requested lower quality materials?
If the latter, here's hoping that they won't make that same mistake this time.

Agreed with that too. We have no way of telling for sure.

 

[Tony]

Hum... maybe I need clarify. By "design", I meant things like the floor plan and the window placement. Sorry folks, but I think one of the reasons the Viewliner roomettes are so much better than the Superliner roomettes, are the extra "top bunk" windows. It really helps to make the top bunk much more inviting and spacious to use.

But yea, I would like the chairs to be all ultra-soft leather in the new builds.

And the mattresses to be contracted out to the people who did the "Cloud Nine beds" at Hampton Inn.

And the fiberglass (plastic?) finish pieces to have molded-in-color, rather than industrial gray paint which wears off pretty easily.

And a working coffee pot!

 

[Neil_M]

The design is good. M-K's build quality was the main failing.

+1 Agreed.

The question in my mind that needs to be asked though is, was the build quality poor because of M-K? Or was it poor because Amtrak low balled things and requested lower quality materials?

If the latter, here's hoping that they won't make that same mistake this time.

Who is more at fault? The company that makes the vehicles or the railroad that accepts them?

Although if Amtrak asked for crap to be built and crap is what they got then its their fault.

 

[jis]

Who is more at fault? The company that makes the vehicles or the railroad that accepts them?Although if Amtrak asked for crap to be built and crap is what they got then its their fault.

Notwithstanding all the problem that Viewliners may have, real and perceived, to call them "crap" is a bit over the top IMHO. But then everyone is entitled to have an opinion and share it too

Unfortunately though, the whole business of the bidding process that is used for RFPs is rife with problems and present ample opportunities for gratuitious political and other extraneous interference, in many cases leading to less than optimal outcomes. The extreme classic case of such is the Super Steel fiasco with the Turboliner rebuilds, a case where Amtrak refused to accept the resulting trainsets and that led to suits, counter-suits and endless political posturing which essentially brought any development of the Empire Corridor to a grinding halt for years. Some could argue that that is what the Pataki administration wanted anyway, but that is getting off the topic here. In passing, it is worth noting though, without any comment, that at that time Mr. Boardman who is now at Amtrak, was the DOT Commissioner for New York State.

 

[nferr]

People forget the Viewliners have been run to death with no major refurbishments yet. A lot of the problems are deferred maintenance by Amtrak. Hence fixing things with duct tape, cheap shades etc.

 

[Neil_M]

Notwithstanding all the problem that Viewliners may have, real and perceived, to call them "crap" is a bit over the top IMHO. But then everyone is entitled to have an opinion and share it too

It wasn't aimed at the Viewliners as such, more a general comment about rail vehicles in general.

Generally the builder will build what you ask for, you need to know exactly what you want.

That said, I don't think the Viewliners are much good anyway. But that's Amtrak's fault for letting the maintenance slide.

 

[Walt]

The design is good. M-K's build quality was the main failing.

+1 Agreed.

+2 Agreed.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Not really.I was looking for specific examples and practical experience rather than some stuff about cars.

It was the best example I could think of. A good design built poorly will be a poor product. You can take a poor design and still make a good product by building it well- sorry for bringing up cars, but the VW Type-1 (We know it as the Beetle) comes to mind- but if you build even the best design poorly, though, you still have crap.

M-K did a poor job building the Viewliners. They were assembled using fairly decent materials, actually. I'm sure they were specced. Most of the problem are botched welds, poor fitting, improper fits, improvised fixes for mistakes, and so on.

People forget the Viewliners have been run to death with no major refurbishments yet. A lot of the problems are deferred maintenance by Amtrak. Hence fixing things with duct tape, cheap shades etc.

Maintenance has little to do with most of it, although the cars would be in better shape if they weren't run to death. Anything would be, be it a Fiat or a Mercedes. The cars are simply of low quality. The 10-6s were also run to death, and they weren't in as bad shape in 1990 as the Viewliners are now. And in 1990, many of them were over 40 years old- the Viewliners are less than 15.

Amtrak's mistake was selecting a subway manufacturer on its way to bankruptcy to build a long-distance rail car. The poor quality of the cars is the fault of the company they picked. It would be like buying cars from Colorado Rail Cars.

 

[Neil_M]

M-K did a poor job building the Viewliners. They were assembled using fairly decent materials, actually. I'm sure they were specced. Most of the problem are botched welds, poor fitting, improper fits, improvised fixes for mistakes, and so on.


Maintenance has little to do with most of it,

'Maintenance' (or lack of) is what the passenger sees. I work in a maintenance depot and our management are very hot on 'Customer facing defects', toilets, air con, catering equipment. All the silly little things that stick in peoples minds, and the kind of stuff you need to use duct tape to fix. The botched welds are of little matter to the passenger, if they were that botched the car would have fallen apart by now. Why don't the doors lock, why don't the curtains close, why does the coffee machine never work in Veiwliners? Who built what back in the day is of little matter (unless you 'foam' for a pastime), if the sleeper compartment door will not lock, then thats more important to the passenger than worrying about what went on 15 years ago.

Regardless of who built what car/coach/trailer, the customer needed to ensure it is fit for purpose, 15 years on is too bloomin late to worry that one long gone company did a worse job than other long gone company.

 

[George Harris]

One thing easy to forget in this process is the difference between something built for a long standing private customre and for a government agency.

In the past the passenger cars were built by one of a few car builders for one of many private railroad companies all parties intending to be in business for a long time. All involved were dealing with suppliers of materials and parts who also intended to be around a while and keep a good relationship with their customers. There was always the clear understanding of "you build it good, or we won't come back". As a result, the spec could be fairly short and to the point with the understanding that issues and misunderstandings would be settled between people that wanted ot keep a good working relationship. The work in progress would be visited regualrly by people from the railroad that knew what they were looking at, knew what they wanted, and were regular users of the service.

Today: We have work built by here today gone tomorrow companies buying many of their parts from who knows where. The customer is a quasi-government agency that does random purchasing at random times from random sources. Most of the people involved don't use the services regularly and most of the people involved inspecting the work are either inexperienced or inept. The plans and specs go into excruciating detail and any disputes are settled in an acrimonious fashion by a bunch of lawyers.

Why should we be surprised that there are quality issues? We should be both surprised and thankful that things come out as good as they do. There are still people out there that do have integrity and dedication for which they get very little thanks, but without them things would be much worse than they are.

 

[PRR 60]

Who is more at fault? The company that makes the vehicles or the railroad that accepts them?Although if Amtrak asked for crap to be built and crap is what they got then its their fault.

My impression at the time was that M-K low-balled the bid to get the business and then found out that actually building the cars was a lot more involved than their estimators thought. Companies that are losing money on work tend to do that work poorly.

I can also say that the Viewliner design was (and still is) unique. The odd shape of the cars and the modular slide-in rooms of the sleepers was pretty far out of the box for rail car design. With just 50 cars, there was little chance for M-K to work-out production bugs building cars that no one else had ever built. Fifty cars is more like custom work than a true production line. It could be that M-K priced those 50 assuming that maybe 100 more would follow and help defray the start-up costs. As all know, it was 50 and done.

 

[AlanB]

Who is more at fault? The company that makes the vehicles or the railroad that accepts them?Although if Amtrak asked for crap to be built and crap is what they got then its their fault.

My impression at the time was that M-K low-balled the bid to get the business and then found out that actually building the cars was a lot more involved than their estimators thought. Companies that are losing money on work tend to do that work poorly.

I can also say that the Viewliner design was (and still is) unique. The odd shape of the cars and the modular slide-in rooms of the sleepers was pretty far out of the box for rail car design. With just 50 cars, there was little chance for M-K to work-out production bugs building cars that no one else had ever built. Fifty cars is more like custom work than a true production line. It could be that M-K priced those 50 assuming that maybe 100 more would follow and help defray the start-up costs. As all know, it was 50 and done.

Wasn't the original order for 100, that then got scaled back to 50 when Amtrak found that there wasn't enough money for 100?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

'Maintenance' (or lack of) is what the passenger sees. I work in a maintenance depot and our management are very hot on 'Customer facing defects', toilets, air con, catering equipment. All the silly little things that stick in peoples minds, and the kind of stuff you need to use duct tape to fix. The botched welds are of little matter to the passenger, if they were that botched the car would have fallen apart by now. Why don't the doors lock, why don't the curtains close, why does the coffee machine never work in Veiwliners? Who built what back in the day is of little matter (unless you 'foam' for a pastime), if the sleeper compartment door will not lock, then thats more important to the passenger than worrying about what went on 15 years ago.Regardless of who built what car/coach/trailer, the customer needed to ensure it is fit for purpose, 15 years on is too bloomin late to worry that one long gone company did a worse job than other long gone company.

You can't spend alot of precious money and time on the things the customer sees if you are spending that money and time trying to keep the vehicle from falling apart and actually in a state approaching roadworthiness. First you make it run. Then you can set about making it look good while doing it. Amtrak was and is running around like chickens without heads keeping those damned pieces of rubbish running the rails. They'll get around to making the amenities work when they have enough breathing room to work on a car for things other then the basic essentials.

Wasn't the original order for 100, that then got scaled back to 50 when Amtrak found that there wasn't enough money for 100?

Yeah. Which is pretty laughable when you think about it. They could have had the entire 350-car Viewliner I (100 sleepers, 25 diners, 25 lounge cars, 25 baggage/dorms, 175 coach cars) program on the road for what its going to cost to retool for the Viewliner IIs. Let alone build more than this initial order.

 

[Tony]

Yeah. Which is pretty laughable when you think about it. They could have had the entire 350-car Viewliner I (100 sleepers, 25 diners, 25 lounge cars, 25 baggage/dorms, 175 coach cars) program on the road for what its going to cost to retool for the Viewliner IIs. Let alone build more than this initial order.

The Hoover Dam cost $50M. The Hoover Dam Visitor's Center cost $120M. :blink:

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

The Hoover Dam cost $50M. The Hoover Dam Visitor's Center cost $120M. :blink:

Were they built decades apart, and if so, does that adjust for inflation?

 

[Tony]

Were they built decades apart, and if so, does that adjust for inflation?

Aren't the two Viewliner orders decades apart too? If so, inflation is consistent between the comparisons and doesn't need any adjustment.

 

[Neil_M]

You can't spend alot of precious money and time on the things the customer sees if you are spending that money and time trying to keep the vehicle from falling apart and actually in a state approaching roadworthiness. First you make it run. Then you can set about making it look good while doing it. Amtrak was and is running around like chickens without heads keeping those damned pieces of rubbish running the rails. They'll get around to making the amenities work when they have enough breathing room to work on a car for things other then the basic essentials.

I think (like with most things) you over-exaggerate the situation. If the cars were that bad they would be stopped by now, you can not tell me that every time they reach a maintenance location there are welds to be repaired and other major stuff like that?

How long does it take to replace a door lock or fix a toilet, I bet you I have more idea than you do.

I doubt you have ever laid hands on a rail vehicle except to travel on it.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I think (like with most things) you over-exaggerate the situation. If the cars were that bad they would be stopped by now, you can not tell me that every time they reach a maintenance location there are welds to be repaired and other major stuff like that?How long does it take to replace a door lock or fix a toilet, I bet you I have more idea than you do.

I doubt you have ever laid hands on a rail vehicle except to travel on it.

If they were stopped, Amtrak would lose sleeper service on its important New York-Chicago and New York-Florida runs. Crappy sleeping cars are better than no sleeping cars at all.

 

[Ryan]

I thought Amtrak was fine with the current locomotive roster- why are they restoring more units? The P40s covered the Auto Train for awhile before they went into storage didn't they? Are they going to troll the system in random LD service? Where will they be assigned out of?

A pair of P40's have appeared in Ivy City (832 on Monday-ish, 821 yesterday afternoon):

Not sure if they're headed out on the road for duty, or ???

 

[printman2000]

Thanks for the pic. Can you tell me where Ivy City is?

I doubt they have any restored P40's ready to go yet. Perhaps on there way to wherever they will be restoring them?

 

[AlanB]

Thanks for the pic. Can you tell me where Ivy City is?

DC.

 

[printman2000]

So where will the P40's be restored? And why were these two not already there? Or could they really already be going back into service?

 

[Ryan]

Thanks for the pic. Can you tell me where Ivy City is?
I doubt they have any restored P40's ready to go yet. Perhaps on there way to wherever they will be restoring them?

That's what I thought as well, but figured that the most likely location for the restoration was in Bear, where they were stored. I recall reading somewhere that some of them were kept road worthy, so perhaps these are they. It'll be interesting to see where they turn up. It's been an odd week for power at Ivy City, seen a handful of Dash 8's kicking around as well (not that terribly rare, but not an everyday sight either)