Cheaper price or more amenities on future new services

[Anderson]

As far as amenities, I think Amtrak could do a better job in the cafe cars instead of microwave food. I can get better food at the corner conveniance store from the hot dog rollers or pizza cabenet.

As far as routes, I think we could all agree that we would like to see more routes to serve some major destinantions that don't have service (i.e. Las Vegas or the FL extension of the SL) or more frequency (2 trains a day on routes like the Pennsylvanian, Crescent, Capitol Limited, etc).

For service, I really think they need to increase speeds and reliability of all trains.

With regards to the food in the cafe cars, the amount of space for storing food and cooking is much less than in a corner convenience store. The microwaved hot dogs are not that great, but where would they put the hot dog rollers in the small cafe counter? Besides, one big lurch at a switch and those hot dogs go flying. According to their reports, Amtrak is trying to improve the food in the cafe cars, but realistically, they have to keep the costs down.

On more frequencies or restoring routes, sure, if someone is willing to pay for it. And willing to provide funds to buy the additional equipment.

Among the goals in the Amtrak Strategic Plan are of course to increase average speeds and reliability. Well, yea, they are not going to push for slowing the trains down and never be on time. The $6 billion or so of HSIPR and TIGER funds that is going to projects on Amtrak corridors and routes will help to cut trip times and boost reliability on those corridors. Just need more money to for more track, signal, and station upgrades.

It would be nice if they could do something similar to what Panera does with their salads as far as I can tell (i.e. You've got a salad box and a "bag" of topper; when someone orders one of several salads on the menu, you pour the topper on the salad, warming it if appropriate). If this means expanding the service area by a table or so of space, then so be it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Now for the expensive, therefore unlikely amenities/upgrades to be added:

I would love to see first class lounge cars on the LD Trains-like the PPC, but specific to each train.

Bring back Dome cars!

Addition of some type of 'slumbercoach class' in addition to the 'sleeper class'.

Reconfigure the bedrooms to allow for a larger bottom bed, add a small fridge. Stocked, of course.

The addition of a smoking lounge car, or a car at the end of the train that has a door you could open to a 'platform' or 'porch' to go outside and smoke. I know that's not the right words for it, but if you look at pics of old trains you'll get the idea. They used one for President Obama's train ride to the Inauguration.

Last, but not least, reinstate some of the old routes where there is no service. I can only speak to my area, but the two I would love to see reinstated would be the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. Both are north/south trains, which we don't have here since they are gone.

1. This is actually quite possible as Amtrak already has them on the CS so it should not be too hard to get them on more trains.

2. Yea, not very likely.

3. Maybe they could sell different roomettes instead of lie-flats or slumbercoaches. Like roomettes just like the current ones but withoutmeals included, without the extra sleeper perks, etc..

4. Not likely.

5. This would be bad, not an improvement! This is for obvious reasons!

6. Not for this thread, so I won't talk about it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Frankly, I hate lie-flats. I think that the perfect intermediate class would not be lie-flats, but Roomettes sold with less amenities.

 

[railiner]

I think that if Amtrak operated some Superliner sleepers, configured entirely of 'roomettes', they would have as many as 24 of them, plus one family room and one handicap room. Total berths would be 52 adults and 2 children....not too far off the capacity of a 77 seat Superliner coach. And actually higher than some of the Heritage transcontinental chair cars with as few as 40-44 seats.

If you eliminated the first class amenities, and meal vouchers, the fares should be able to be substantially reduced, and still yield a decent profit on operation.

Given the availability of such an option, I think they would be very popular....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I think that if Amtrak operated some Superliner sleepers, configured entirely of 'roomettes', they would have as many as 24 of them, plus one family room and one handicap room. Total berths would be 52 adults and 2 children....not too far off the capacity of a 77 seat Superliner coach. And actually higher than some of the Heritage transcontinental chair cars with as few as 40-44 seats.

If you eliminated the first class amenities, and meal vouchers, the fares should be able to be substantially reduced, and still yield a decent profit on operation.

Given the availability of such an option, I think they would be very popular....

Just like that! They could also order/convert Viewliners with only roomettes!

 

[AlanB]

I think that if Amtrak operated some Superliner sleepers, configured entirely of 'roomettes', they would have as many as 24 of them, plus one family room and one handicap room. Total berths would be 52 adults and 2 children....not too far off the capacity of a 77 seat Superliner coach. And actually higher than some of the Heritage transcontinental chair cars with as few as 40-44 seats.

If you eliminated the first class amenities, and meal vouchers, the fares should be able to be substantially reduced, and still yield a decent profit on operation.

Given the availability of such an option, I think they would be very popular....

Just like that! They could also order/convert Viewliners with only roomettes!

They only order the shell when it comes to Viewliners. Then they slid in the rooms that they want.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

They only order the shell when it comes to Viewliners. Then they slid in the rooms that they want.

Well, if that's the case, they might as well put in more roomettes right now!

 

[AlanB]

They only order the shell when it comes to Viewliners. Then they slid in the rooms that they want.

Well, if that's the case, they might as well put in more roomettes right now!

Why, most trains sell out of the Bedrooms before they sell out of the roomettes? Better to slid in more Bedrooms and get more revenue from occupied Bedrooms rather than unoccupied roomettes.

 

[railiner]

They only order the shell when it comes to Viewliners. Then they slid in the rooms that they want.

Well, if that's the case, they might as well put in more roomettes right now!

Why, most trains sell out of the Bedrooms before they sell out of the roomettes? Better to slid in more Bedrooms and get more revenue from occupied Bedrooms rather than unoccupied roomettes.

If that's the case, then the answer to the poll in votes by paying passengers, is that people want to pay more for more amenities. I am not disputing that fact, just somewhat surprised....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

You know, I first got this idea when I heard that the Erie used to offer decent service from Hoboken to Chicago, yet offered cheaper fares due to slow travel times and the use of heavyweight equipment.

Think the same kind of thing is worth a try again?

 

[Anderson]

You know, I first got this idea when I heard that the Erie used to offer decent service from Hoboken to Chicago, yet offered cheaper fares due to slow travel times and the use of heavyweight equipment.

Think the same kind of thing is worth a try again?

What are you thinking of, exactly? Most of the Heritage equipment was scrapped, and it was too expensive to convert to non-dump toilets to boot (not to mention that the maintenance costs were probably rising), so that's not really an option anymore. On the other front, there seems to be little reason to run trains to Hoboken when you have access to Penn.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Now for the expensive, therefore unlikely amenities/upgrades to be added:

I would love to see first class lounge cars on the LD Trains-like the PPC, but specific to each train.

Bring back Dome cars!

Addition of some type of 'slumbercoach class' in addition to the 'sleeper class'.

Reconfigure the bedrooms to allow for a larger bottom bed, add a small fridge. Stocked, of course.

The addition of a smoking lounge car, or a car at the end of the train that has a door you could open to a 'platform' or 'porch' to go outside and smoke. I know that's not the right words for it, but if you look at pics of old trains you'll get the idea. They used one for President Obama's train ride to the Inauguration.

Last, but not least, reinstate some of the old routes where there is no service. I can only speak to my area, but the two I would love to see reinstated would be the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. Both are north/south trains, which we don't have here since they are gone.

1. This is actually quite possible as Amtrak already has them on the CS so it should not be too hard to get them on more trains.

2. Yea, not very likely.

3. Maybe they could sell different roomettes instead of lie-flats or slumbercoaches. Like roomettes just like the current ones but withoutmeals included, without the extra sleeper perks, etc..

4. Not likely.

5. This would be bad, not an improvement! This is for obvious reasons!

6. Not for this thread, so I won't talk about it.

Number 6. I believe the title of this thread that YOU started says FUTURE NEW SERVICES. Sunchaser was not being too specific, talking about future services she wants and would find helpful. I don't think it's fair to call her out for that here.

Number 1. Not nearly as easy as you feel that it is. Where do you plan on getting double-deck first class lounge cars - from a new equip order?

Number 3. Right, because it makes a TON of sense to sell roomettes that take up revenue space from higher paying pax.

I agree on Number 5, that smoking is for a reason not allowed and should not have a place aboard pax trains. I'm very surprised that the Auto Train still allows it.

Number 2. A lot more likely than the Parlor-Car-for-every-train idea. Amtrak was/is actively pursuing/studying the idea of having a dome (not just the Ocean View) permanently as part of the expected consist of either the Adirondack or the Cardinal.

Number 4. While I think it would be physically impossible and not worth it to make the lower bed larger, I agree with Sunchaser that the idea of a minifridge in the bedrooms would be nice.

 

[jis]

How do you exactly justify getting significant number of non-revenue cars, when there is serious shortage of revenue cars given the growth in demand? It seems to me that we should be fulfilling the need for revenue cars and necessary auxiliary cars like bags, diners and lunges before thinking about special first class lounges. The latter can be considered for one or two specific trains, but certainly not for all while demand goes unfulfilled for simple transportation IMHO.

 

[Anderson]

How do you exactly justify getting significant number of non-revenue cars, when there is serious shortage of revenue cars given the growth in demand? It seems to me that we should be fulfilling the need for revenue cars and necessary auxiliary cars like bags, diners and lunges before thinking about special first class lounges. The latter can be considered for one or two specific trains, but certainly not for all while demand goes unfulfilled for simple transportation IMHO.

I think there may be a logic to things like lounge-sleepers...for example, couldn't a first class lounge car have a set of roomettes or bedrooms at one end in the vein of the Park Cars that Via uses? In the same vein, couldn't some cafe space be turned over to revenue seats in the vein of what Amtrak used to do (and still does with the half-cafe/half-BC cars)? My point is more that there's no reason that an amenity car must be a "complete" lost car to revenue space, and that even 1/3 to 1/2 of a car put to an end can enhance the customer experience.

For an example, take the idea of a ten-car Regional. Might it not make sense to stick a soda/coffee machine and a snack machine or two at a car towards the ends of the train so folks could avoid a five-car hike for a drink while also avoiding losing a whole car to OBS? And might not a couple of busy machines make up for at least some of the lost seat space (i.e. How much could a "hot drink" machine and a soda machine generate in revenue vs. a pair of cut seats?) Likewise, if improving OBS requires mainly pulling out some tables in a cafe car (as I've suggested), does that really hurt revenue?

 

[rtabern]

I would say add both... as in a "premium class" (more service for more price) and also bring back a mix between a roomette and coach... a la "slumbercoach".

I remember when my family always went to Florida as a kid... my dad would buy 4 slumbercoach rooms so everyone would have their own room. It was a cool thing to be 8 years old and have your own room.

It would be nice to have more options -- I wouldn't mind the slumbercoach option a lot of the time I want to do a long distance trip but am a little strapped for cash and dont want to part with AGR points. Most of the time I can only eat 2 meals anyway... esp if there is a cheese/wine tasting... so it would be nice to have an option where meals weren't included.

Then again, a "premium class" option would be nice too -- with domes and all the goodies.

 

[sunchaser]

Jis,

I agree with you. They will not provide extra non revenue cars at this time, and they have trouble maintaining the existing fleet. IF, (a big if!) Amtrak could take care of the issues with the existing fleet first, AND make a profit (I know, a dirty word) then maybe they could add some more cars. I think that if that was done, they could possibly raise the prices on bedrooms/roomettes if they added more cars like the PPC. It does seem that riding the CS is higher in price, compared to the CZ. I don't know about the other trains, those are the two that I monitor pricing on. I do think that if they were more amenities like the PPC or slumbercoaches, for instance, that it would increase ridership. At this time, I would be happy with refurbished cars, and maybe extra sleeper cars, and of course fleet maintenance!

 

[jis]

I would say add both... as in a "premium class" (more service for more price) and also bring back a mix between a roomette and coach... a la "slumbercoach".

I am all for bringing back the "Slumbercoach". Until they took those away, that was my only mode of sleeper travel. I had never set foot in a full blown sleeper until the Slumbercoaches went away. I really do not care for or need the extra "pampering" offered in full sleepers, and would rather not pay for something that I don;t need just to get a flat surface to sleep on.

 

[afigg]

With regards to the food in the cafe cars, the amount of space for storing food and cooking is much less than in a corner convenience store. The microwaved hot dogs are not that great, but where would they put the hot dog rollers in the small cafe counter? Besides, one big lurch at a switch and those hot dogs go flying. According to their reports, Amtrak is trying to improve the food in the cafe cars, but realistically, they have to keep the costs down.

It would be nice if they could do something similar to what Panera does with their salads as far as I can tell (i.e. You've got a salad box and a "bag" of topper; when someone orders one of several salads on the menu, you pour the topper on the salad, warming it if appropriate). If this means expanding the service area by a table or so of space, then so be it.

If/when Viewliner II café cars are ordered, by putting the café service at one end of the car, should be able to make more efficient use of space. The higher internal height of the Viewliner shell over the Amfleet tube should allow for more high shelf storage space so the cars don't run out of menu items as often. The café service area in the Acela cars would be the starting point for the new design, but one would hope that the layout and useless stools of the remainder of the Acela café cars gets used as what not to do in the design discussions.

One thing that strikes me as the complaints about the café car food service is that people bring up different vendors and types of food they want: hot dog stand, pizza place, Subway, convenience store, burger joint or MacDonald's and now Panera Bread. Rather difficult to fit the menus and food items from all those places into one small café service area which has about as much room as a street vendor truck. The café car has to offer a variety of foods to meet the demands of a diverse customer base. It can't provide the options of a mall food court with 10 or 20 food outlet places.

 

[jis]

The configuration in which the Amfleet I Food Service Cars were ordered tended to have a lot of revenue seats in those cars, and there were many more of them as a proportion of the total number of cars. The trend has been to move away from having more food service cars with revenue seats to fewer overall Food Service Cars and with fewer to zero revenue seats. So anyway, I think one of the residual effects of the original decision has been inadequate space in Food Service Cars to store food, since it was probably surmised that there would be two or three of them in each train, not just one. And that basic layout of a Food Service Car has not changed.

Perhaps it is time to step back and rethink the whole thing based on the premise that an 8 or 10 car train will have only one Food Service Car not two or three, since each additional Food Service Car also entails additional staff cost. Under those assumptions one would go for a more substantial food service section in a Food Service Car, sort of like you find in the Acelas. That furthermore suggests that a core Food Service Car could be based on the basic Diner layout for the Food Service part at one end. At the other end you could have a choice of Lounge type seating, Diner style Table seating or revenue seating for 30 or so perhaps separated from the food service portion by a glass partition.

This would provide considerable additional food storage and an opportunity to provide a little more robust menu choices too. OTOH it keeps the number of types of modules needed down to a minimum, thus adding to asset efficiency.

Just some random thoughts to ponder over.....

 

[Anderson]

I've mainly tended to mention Panera as more of an operation model that could maximize variety while minimizing OBS effort (i.e. having a food base and a topping/mix-in that can be mixed-and-matched, which could give you 3-4 salad varieties while only really needing the space of a few salads) than specifically saying "I want this type of food".

Edit: As to the idea of moving the food preparation area to one end, I like this idea a lot. As to dealing with food service on a long train, I'd say that the answer would be to put some vending options towards the ends of the train to at least cut down on the long walks just to get a drink or a bag of pretzels. You could also clear some of your food options out of the cafe that way, providing a bit more space for "real" food.

 

[afigg]

The configuration in which the Amfleet I Food Service Cars were ordered tended to have a lot of revenue seats in those cars, and there were many more of them as a proportion of the total number of cars. The trend has been to move away from having more food service cars with revenue seats to fewer overall Food Service Cars and with fewer to zero revenue seats. So anyway, I think one of the residual effects of the original decision has been inadequate space in Food Service Cars to store food, since it was probably surmised that there would be two or three of them in each train, not just one. And that basic layout of a Food Service Car has not changed.

Perhaps it is time to step back and rethink the whole thing based on the premise that an 8 or 10 car train will have only one Food Service Car not two or three, since each additional Food Service Car also entails additional staff cost. Under those assumptions one would go for a more substantial food service section in a Food Service Car, sort of like you find in the Acelas. That furthermore suggests that a core Food Service Car could be based on the basic Diner layout for the Food Service part at one end. At the other end you could have a choice of Lounge type seating, Diner style Table seating or revenue seating for 30 or so perhaps separated from the food service portion by a glass partition.

I think it is safe to assume that in the future corridor trains will run with just one food service car, as they are now. It would be interesting to see statistics on how many passengers brought food or drinks on the NEC and corridor trains in the 1970s versus today. Fast food chains with prepared meals to go, convenience stores with sandwiches & food, light weight plastic soda bottles with resealable screw caps, plastic soda cups the size of a gallon jug, and so on are now widespread compared to food to go choices in the 1970s. Back in the 1970s, the choice would have been wax paper wrapped sandwiches or greasy burgers in paper bags and glass soda bottles which were not all that convenient to carry onto the train. There have been many incremental changes in how people buy and take food with them, particularly in the development of plastic bottles, plastic bags, and inexpensive lightweight plastic containers. Now people buy coffee at Starbucks to take with them. There has been a huge change in how Americans eat food - and in the expanding average waistlines. I suspect the percentage of passenger buying food on the train for the typical corridor trip is far less than it was. So, one food car with one attendant is all the Regionals and corridor trains need for typical service.

Amtrak can make use of the Viewliner II modular design and establish a standard food/café/diner-light/lounge car. Have a food/café area at one end, maybe half the size of the full service diner cars food prep space. The rest of the car would have the double windows and be designed to maximize a reconfigurable space with no more than one ADA compliant restroom in the car. The space could be all table booths similar to the Amfleet I tables, or a block of tables & 20-24 revenue coach seats at the far end. Or a small business class seating area.

The idea is that the food service facility would be the same for different levels of service from a Regional café car menu to serving pre-packaged meals for a diner-light menu. Just stocked differently. The rest of the car would be where Amtrak would have different configurations , but with the double height windows so it could be used as a corridor café car, café & revenue seat car, café and lounge car, even a first class car with 2x1 seating if it is determined there is a market for it on the Adirondack and special lease trains for sport teams.

The mistake to avoid is the one made with the Acela Café cars with the different height windows from the coach cars and interior layout that makes it difficult to revise or re-purpose the rest of the car.

 

[jis]

afigg, without quoting the whole message.... I agree.

One thing that I observe today though is that the problem in the Cafes is more a lack of storage space than a lack of food prep space. That is why I was thinking that at least a third of the car at one end should be devoted storage + fodd prep space. Trains constantly run out of food because there simply isn;t enough space to store the food, and who has not seen boxes of stuff sitting on table and in every possible nook and cranny of those cars? That situations needs to be mitigated in the new design.

One other thing that has changed since back then is that there are many fewer commissaries, which again suggests that more food storage is necessary in Food Service Cars.

 

[Texan Eagle]

On corridor services like NEC that would require longer trains as demand keeps growing, one way to avoid making passengers walk 5-6 cars to grab one snack or a can of soda is to consider having a "vendor" who would walk up and down the length of the train taking orders and delivering snacks at-seat. Yes, this would require seats to have tray tables but hey, that's not something very difficult to do. The "Cafe car" can be shrunk to half a car that stocks ready to eat snacks and beverages and also has space to cook some hot items, but no bar tables and stuff. The remaining half of the coach can be a revenue Business Class or Coach, something revenue earning. The vendor can walk the length of the train with some chips and cookies and soda cans and the passengers who want those stuff can just buy it off them, while at the same time the vendor, while on the 'walk', can take orders for hot items that need to be prepared. When he/she comes around for the next round, they can bring that hot item to your seat. I have seen this system working quite well on trains in India where today most express trains are 24 car long and it would be insane for passengers to walk an 10-12 cars to reach the food car. There since the trains are so long, there are several vendors that walk across the train carrying various food items but on a 10 car Regional maybe they can start it with 1 vendor and if the passengers like it, increase to 2 vendors walking through the train.

 

[sunchaser]

On corridor services like NEC that would require longer trains as demand keeps growing, one way to avoid making passengers walk 5-6 cars to grab one snack or a can of soda is to consider having a "vendor" who would walk up and down the length of the train taking orders and delivering snacks at-seat. Yes, this would require seats to have tray tables but hey, that's not something very difficult to do. The "Cafe car" can be shrunk to half a car that stocks ready to eat snacks and beverages and also has space to cook some hot items, but no bar tables and stuff. The remaining half of the coach can be a revenue Business Class or Coach, something revenue earning. The vendor can walk the length of the train with some chips and cookies and soda cans and the passengers who want those stuff can just buy it off them, while at the same time the vendor, while on the 'walk', can take orders for hot items that need to be prepared. When he/she comes around for the next round, they can bring that hot item to your seat. I have seen this system working quite well on trains in India where today most express trains are 24 car long and it would be insane for passengers to walk an 10-12 cars to reach the food car. There since the trains are so long, there are several vendors that walk across the train carrying various food items but on a 10 car Regional maybe they can start it with 1 vendor and if the passengers like it, increase to 2 vendors walking through the train.

Anything from the Trolley, dears?

I hope the train consists here don't get that long. Hopefully they would schedule more trains!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Since this is fantasy, what kind of amenities are you thinking? Dome cars on all trains that can use them? More Parlor Cars? More routes? Jacuzzis? I would be happy with mattress/bedding upgrades! Sometimes the food could be better and more choices too!

I'm talking about a step up from what qwe have now, so instead of adding new intermediate classes, I'm talking about things like better food, round-end obs cars, drawing rooms, maybe master rooms, dome cars, basically stuff like that.

I voted for higher price and more amenities. I would like to see first class lounge cars ala PPC added to all LD trains. I would like to see upgrades in the diners, ie return to china, glassware and more scratch prepared items. I dont know what percentage or dollar amount increase would cover those costs so I dont know how much higher the fares would be, but the ridership numbers are there. Amreica is returning to train travel. I'd gladly pay the price (and no I'm not a 1%er)

These stuff and some others are what I'm talking about.

In that case, the first things to do would be to upgrade linens and mattresses in the sleepers.

They should also return to real china and glassware, it actually 'more green' than using plastic and paper.

The same could be said for the meals-instead of prepackaged foods, return to cooked to order. Better menu, more regional and more selection.

Now for the expensive, therefore unlikely amenities/upgrades to be added:

I would love to see first class lounge cars on the LD Trains-like the PPC, but specific to each train.

Bring back Dome cars!

Addition of some type of 'slumbercoach class' in addition to the 'sleeper class'.

Reconfigure the bedrooms to allow for a larger bottom bed, add a small fridge. Stocked, of course.

The addition of a smoking lounge car, or a car at the end of the train that has a door you could open to a 'platform' or 'porch' to go outside and smoke. I know that's not the right words for it, but if you look at pics of old trains you'll get the idea. They used one for President Obama's train ride to the Inauguration.

Last, but not least, reinstate some of the old routes where there is no service. I can only speak to my area, but the two I would love to see reinstated would be the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. Both are north/south trains, which we don't have here since they are gone.

The word you are looking for is Observation car. There were two kinds, the old type with a rear platform which you describe and the newer kind==a rounded end car such as still operates on the Canadian. The reason you do not know the name is that the word "observation car' is gradually being changed to mean the sightseer lounge and some people also mistakenly thought the dome cars were observation cars.

Now, you may ask why is it a mistake to refer to domes and sightseer cars as observation cars since you can see much more from them.....because true observation cars are as old as trains--- the domes were not invented until the late 40s and sighteer much later than that. The name was already taken, in other words.

I fully know that I am fighting a losing battle and someday I, too, will be compelled to look at a sightseer lounge and say "observation car'

But there is something else.....our coach reservations were screwed up on the first train I rode at age three (1947}. And we had to ride in the observation car----like the kind on the Canadian but without the dome. Maybe that is why I am still picking that nic. I fell in love with Canadian style streamlned obs cars on my first ride.