Christmas morning shooting on the Coast Starlight

[McLeansvilleAppFan]

https://kymkemp.com/2023/12/26/new-...k-shooting-one-dead-and-possibly-two-injured/

 

[basketmaker]

The witness in the story said he heard 8-10 shots. For crying out loud, in a dark enclosed train car with however many passengers, is it necessary or reasonable to unload a gun that many times?

You fire until the threat is stopped.

 

[John Santos]

You fire until the threat is stopped.

That seems to be the way police are currently trained to respond. The result is problematic. This procedure usually means they fire their full load (six to ten shots) as rapidly as possible in the general direction of "the threat". Even at point blank range, most of the shots miss. Their gun is now empty. If they have no backup and the suspect isn't dead or seriously incapacitated, they officer is in deep trouble. The shots that miss can easily hit or kill an innocent bystander (like the conductor in this case.)

It's not like the movies, where the Lone Ranger shoots the bad guy in the hand and his gun goes flying off. The main argument for firing until you empty your gun, and aiming for the biggest target (the center of mass, usually the chest) is once the situation has escalated to shots fired, this is the quickest way to end it, but there have been a great many cases where the suspect was later found to be unarmed and the cop panicked.

Cops are not in general well trained in assessing threats or in deescalating them. "Shoot first and ask questions later." This results in many bystander shootings and many mentally ill but harmless people dying.

There is so much we DON'T know. Was the guy actually threatening anyone or was he just scary? Was he armed? With a gun or other weapon? If armed, did he fire first or point his gun at the conductor, the cop or someone else? Did the cop try to talk him down of come in with guns blazing? How long did the confrontation last before shots were fired? Does the cop have a history of excessive use of force? We know nothing about the suspect. Did he have a history of violence? Was he despondent? Was the suspect attempting "suicide by cop"? What did the witnesses see? (There should have been lots of them on a holiday train, which are usually close to capacity.) We've only heard the filtered statements of one passenger, and nothing from the cop, the conductor, the rest of the train crew or Amtrak. Until we know the answers to most or all of these questions, we can't know if the cop was totally justified, over-reacted, panicked or was looking for an opportunity to commit legal murder. All of these things have happened in the recent past.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

How sad. All reports call the deceased a "passenger" - there is no evidence to suggest he did not purchase a ticket. He was probably trying to get home to friends / family just like everyone else. If the man was just being argumentative he certainly didn't deserve to die. Obviously we don't know all the details but seems to me everyone would have been alot better off if the amtrak staff had just let it be and not called the police.

 

[Big Iron]

That seems to be the way police are currently trained to respond. The result is problematic. This procedure usually means they fire their full load (six to ten shots) as rapidly as possible in the general direction of "the threat". Even at point blank range, most of the shots miss. Their gun is now empty. If they have no backup and the suspect isn't dead or seriously incapacitated, they officer is in deep trouble. The shots that miss can easily hit or kill an innocent bystander (like the conductor in this case.)

It's not like the movies, where the Lone Ranger shoots the bad guy in the hand and his gun goes flying off. The main argument for firing until you empty your gun, and aiming for the biggest target (the center of mass, usually the chest) is once the situation has escalated to shots fired, this is the quickest way to end it, but there have been a great many cases where the suspect was later found to be unarmed and the cop panicked.

Cops are not in general well trained in assessing threats or in deescalating them. "Shoot first and ask questions later." This results in many bystander shootings and many mentally ill but harmless people dying.

There is so much we DON'T know. Was the guy actually threatening anyone or was he just scary? Was he armed? With a gun or other weapon? If armed, did he fire first or point his gun at the conductor, the cop or someone else? Did the cop try to talk him down of come in with guns blazing? How long did the confrontation last before shots were fired? Does the cop have a history of excessive use of force? We know nothing about the suspect. Did he have a history of violence? Was he despondent? Was the suspect attempting "suicide by cop"? What did the witnesses see? (There should have been lots of them on a holiday train, which are usually close to capacity.) We've only heard the filtered statements of one passenger, and nothing from the cop, the conductor, the rest of the train crew or Amtrak. Until we know the answers to most or all of these questions, we can't know if the cop was totally justified, over-reacted, panicked or was looking for an opportunity to commit legal murder. All of these things have happened in the recent past.

You are wrong on so many levels. Six to 10 shots is roughly half of the typical police service pistol. Police always carry a back up gun. Granted missed shots could hit innocent people. The Lone Ranger is fiction. Regarding training, I'd ask what police academy did you attend? I have a close family member that has been a police officer for seven years. They are trained, retrained, trained again, and again, on threat assessment and de-escalation. Your are correct in stating there is so much we DON'T know so why don't you stow your broad brush until more facts are known.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

What scares me about this incident is the lack of press (zero nationwide) and cryptic news releases from local authorities. Hopefully more comes out as the days go on, but that will require an engaged press. I can easily see this fading away from focus as the new year begins. That is until the family of the deceased and assistant conductor who was also shot take the county to court, which today is a given.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread has been temporarily locked. It will reopen if and when more credible information is known. Several posts were removed as off topic and/or political.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[user 14106]

https://www.kdrv.com/news/crimewatc...cle_357b6858-d122-11ee-b9e2-078288382a1c.html

Police have released the body cam footage per California law from the Christmas incident in the Starlight that resulted in police firing their weapon. Warning that the footage is disturbing.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

I didn’t find the video disturbing per se, just sad. I have to wonder if the redacted part of the video correlates with the described narrative. We weren't there but weapons fire on a dark crowded train seems like an extremely poor choice. Maybe turn on the coaches interior lights and clear the car of passengers then wait for more units to arrive then deal with it.
Thankfully the conductor survived being shot and no other passengers were hurt.