Coast Starlight Train Numbers?

[Bronzeman]

Does anyone know why, unlike other LD trains, the train numbers for the CS aren't consecutive? Following the normal protocol you would expect either 11/12 or 14/15 instead of 11/14. Is there some historical pre-Amtrak reason?

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

There was an article years ago in Trains Magazine, that stated Amtrak would not assign the number 13 to a train carrying passengers due to superstitions or some jazz. 13 was however assigned to the mail train that operated on the NEC, however it no longer operates.

 

[railiner]

The Coast Starlight numbering goes back to the pre-Amtrak Southern Pacific practice....all trains towards San Francisco (or OAK), are "westbound" and carry odd numbers, and all trains going away are "eastbound" and carry even numbers. Even though the Coast Starlight is a thru train from SEA to or from LAX, they treated it as if separate to and from OAK. Hence the southbound CS was numbered 11 and 12, and the northbound was numbered 13 and 14, in the employee timetable. Since Amtrak treated it as a north/south thru train, they only showed the 11 and 14 numbers in the public timetable.

 

[Bronzeman]

Thanks for the prompt response. Taken together both responses explain a lot. SP's employee timetable numbering and why Amtrak chose not to call 13/14 "13". BTW SP's practice reinforces the view of many that SF is the center of the known universe.

 

[DET63]

Interesting. I somehow thought it was going to turn out the_traveler was involved (e.g., that the penthouse suite was included only on the #12 and #13 trains).

 

[Texan Eagle]

Is it really superstition? I remember reading, and even seeing one old timetable, that 11/14 Coast Starlight and 12/13 Coast Daylight were complimentary trains sharing same equipment or something like that. The Coast Daylight went away and Starlight was left with 11/14

 

[zephyr17]

Passenger trains were operated by timetable authority on the SP until the 1980s. That meant they were given rights to occupy track by a schedule printed in the employee timetable. Absent any other instructions from the dispatcher, other trains had to be in the clear in advance of the trains published in the timetable.

Amtrak and SP tried to keep the "public" train number the same as the "railroad" train number. On the SP all trains were either eastward or westward from San Francisco, and "westward" (towards San Francisco) had odd numbers, "eastward" trains (away from San Francisco) had even numbers. Since the Coast Starlight went through the Bay Area, it changed timetable direction in Oakland, and so required two operating train numbers.

So Amtrak train 14 in the Amtrak public timetable was SP train 13 in the SP employee timetable from Los Angeles to Oakland, then SP train 14 from Oakland to Portland. Don't know what BNs numbers were. Conversely, Amtrak train 11 in the Amtrak public timetable was SP train 11 from Portland to Oakland, and SP train 12 from Oakland to Los Angeles.

Since the 1980s all trains are run the way "extras" were before, with no timetable authority and specific authority from the dispatcher, and no trains appear in the employee timetable any more.

Amtrak train numbers 11 & 14 are the anachronistic remnants of the old timetable authority. It is probably easier to leave them the way they are than to change them.

Superstition against "13" has nothing whatsoever to do with it in the Coast Starlight's case.

The SP Coast Daylight were SP trains 98 and 99. The SP Coast Daylight never ran with numbers 12/13 (or 11/14). If I recall correctly, the Cascade (Oakland-Portland) was 11/12, though.

Right after Amday, the Coast Daylight/Starlight (it's initial Amtrak name for the 3 days a week it ran through past Oakland) ran with the Coast Daylight's (98/99) and the Cascade's (11/12) train numbers. Amtrak "normalized" their train numbering that Fall and the Coast Daylight/Starlight, later the Coast Starlight, assumed their 11-12/13-14 numbers then.

The "Spirit of California" also ran past Oakland to Sacramento and had a similar "split" train numbers for the same reason (15/18? I don't remember, although I know they were in the "teens).

Note that the Capitols, which run past Oakland between San Jose and Sacramento do not follow this pattern but have "normal" train numbers. That is because that service as instituted after timetable operating authority was discontinued and train numbers did not mean anything for railroad operation.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Is it really superstition? I remember reading, and even seeing one old timetable, that 11/14 Coast Starlight and 12/13 Coast Daylight were complimentary trains sharing same equipment or something like that. The Coast Daylight went away and Starlight was left with 11/14

I was just quoting what Trains Magazine said.

 

[Ryan]

That's not a really great source of information from what I've seen.

 

[PaulM]

A theory I have is that train numbers line up with departure times. According to this theory, originally #11 the southbound Coast Starlight left first, followed by #12 the northbound Coast Day Light, then southbound #13 Day Light, and finally #14 the northbound Starlight. When the Day Light was discontinued, that left only 11 and 14 and 14 wasn't changed to 12 (or 11 to 13).

There may be others, but another example that doesn't follow the protocol is the Illinois Zephyr and Carl Sandburg. Here the reason is not a train-off, but a newcomer. The original IZ, now called #380, departs QCY 6:12AM and the newer CS #381 departs CHI at 7:35AM. The CS #382 returns to CHI departing QCY at 5:30PM and the IZ now #383 returns to QCY departing CHI at 5:55PM. So 380 and 381 are the morning trains and 382 and 383 the evening ones. But since the IZ was so popular, Amtrak saw no reason to change its name to match the new numbers.

When they added trains to the CHI-STL line, they didn't run into this problem because they gave them all the blah Lincoln Service name.

 

[zephyr17]

There was only one train after Amtrak started. For the first couple years, it only ran between Seattle and Los Angeles 3 days a week. The other 4 days it only ran between Oakland and Los Angeles. Very early on it retained Coast Daylight name on the LA-Oakland days, and was named the Coast Daylight/Starlight on the days it ran through. This was clunky and was relatively quickly renamed the Coast Starlight.

Train 11 departed Seattle and changed its train number to 13 at Oakland. Train 12 departed Los Angeles and changed its train number to 14 at Oakland. Mostly only numbers 11 & 14 were published in the Amtrak public timetable. 12 & 13 were in the SP employee timetable for operational reasons. Those are the actual facts and the reason for those numbers, rooted in SP train numbering convention as described above.

There never was a separate Amtrak train called the Coast Daylight that was discontinued. It just had its name changed to the Coast Starlight and eventually was extended past Oakland daily.

 

[chakk]

Thanks for the prompt response. Taken together both responses explain a lot. SP's employee timetable numbering and why Amtrak chose not to call 13/14 "13". BTW SP's practice reinforces the view of many that SF is the center of the known universe.

Well. if not the center, SF is certainly the nicest place in the known universe.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Thanks for the prompt response. Taken together both responses explain a lot. SP's employee timetable numbering and why Amtrak chose not to call 13/14 "13". BTW SP's practice reinforces the view of many that SF is the center of the known universe.

Well. if not the center, SF is certainly the nicest place in the known universe.

Ever been to Hawaii or San Diego or New York or Paris or Monte Carlo in April or _____________???