Commuter Rail around Tampa proposed

[jis]

https://www.83degreesmedia.com/feat...o-fixing-income-inequality-issues-121520.aspx

 

[Shawn Ryu]

I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The story link mentioned multiple transportation options for this area. Heavy and light rail, Bus rapid lanes, higher frequency of bus, and more. General article for better options than own multiple automotive.

 

[jiml]

I know Tampa reasonably well and don't see heavy rail as an option without a lot of construction or restoration. There are plenty of tracks - they just don't go where needed for commuters. For example, Oldsmar is a "bedroom community", but the track from there meanders through various industries before terminating at 16th St. in St. Pete's. The route saw one or two CSX locals a week over track in varying shape.

 

[jis]

The fixed guideway component of the vision requires quite a bit of new constructions. Some can use existing ROWs, others may have to be elevated in the style used in most Asian cities these days.

 

[trainman74]

I rode on a public demonstration, circa 1997, of potential commuter rail service on the line through South Tampa (basically, the yellow diagonal line along the Selmon Expressway on the map above) -- involving a Siemens RegioSprinter and temporary platforms. Obviously, nothing came of that.

 

[bms]

I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.

 

[MARC Rider]

I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.

If any plan includes transit-oriented development around the stations, it could eventually change the character of the Tampa metro area, which is probably what needs to happen.

 

[jruff001]

Commuter rail will not happen in the Tampa Bay area in my lifetime (I will be 53 this year). The area remains in the dark ages when it comes to public transportation, even though it is clearly the areas Achilles' Heel and lack of it will prevent the area from becoming a first class metropolitan area.

To update the article in the original post, the 1% Hillsborough County transit sales tax referenced as being "in limbo" has now not only been found to be illegal by the Florida Supreme Court, but it will be refunded (somehow) and, even though the tax is now officially dead, some enlightened citizens in the area are contemplating still more legal action, claiming "damages." So the refund might end up going to legal fees.

You can read the sad details here.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If any plan includes transit-oriented development around the stations, it could eventually change the character of the Tampa metro area, which is probably what needs to happen.

They got it to work in LA and Dallas, so it's possible anywhere!

 

[user 1215]

Just trying to wrap my head around $234M for a mere 1.3 miles of streetcar extension.

 

[cirdan]

I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.

True maybe.

But 20 years ago you could have said that of, say, Houston.

Well, it's still true today. But the metro rail system is still mostly a success for the places it does serve.

 

[user 1215]

The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.

Sure true here in Austin!

 

[cirdan]

The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.

The problem with all new build is that lines tend to meander because there are typically innumerable constraints that need to be worked around. This leads to lots of speed restrictions, makes the line slow, and thus not very competitive.

Placing them on abandoned freight ROW on the other hand means nice straight alignments and consistently high speeds, but often at the cost of not actually going to the places where they are most needed.

IMHO the best solution is thus a compromise. Use old freight ROW as the backbone and then build branches or deviations to go to the places where the service is most needed.

 

[jruff001]

The problem with all new build is that lines tend to meander because there are typically innumerable constraints that need to be worked around. This leads to lots of speed restrictions, makes the line slow, and thus not very competitive.

Placing them on abandoned freight ROW on the other hand means nice straight alignments and consistently high speeds, but often at the cost of not actually going to the places where they are most needed.

IMHO the best solution is thus a compromise. Use old freight ROW as the backbone and then build branches or deviations to go to the places where the service is most needed.

But that's why the new build lines meander - because they are more densely developed, the places where the service is most needed are also the places that have the innumerable constraints that have to be worked around, leading to non-competitive services.

 

[user 1215]

They got it to work in LA and Dallas, so it's possible anywhere!

The problem with Dallas is that they underestimated it's potential and built without regard to accommodate growth. They just can't handle any longer trains at all. Ever. And they are already at minimum headways during busy times where most of the lines converge downtown.

 

[dlagrua]

I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.

Tampa does have a trolley service although limited that could be expanded to provide around the city transportation. There are also a few bus routes in that city

 

[Tlcooper44]

I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.

If it all converges on an inter-modal station with the TECO streetcar and some BRT, it could be useful!
Would this commuter line connect to Tampa Union Station and Amtrak?

But that's why the new build lines meander - because they are more densely developed, the places where the service is most needed are also the places that have the innumerable constraints that have to be worked around, leading to non-competitive services.

Its a good opportunity for Transit oriented development. May help draw fresh and driven population growth.

 

[jruff001]

Its a good opportunity for Transit oriented development. May help draw fresh and driven population growth.

Agreed!

But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Agreed!

But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.

Ahh, I see. I've never been to Tampa, but I guess it may be a lost cause at least for the immediate (15yr) future. Perhaps once Brightline is up and running in its full glory, Tampa, the rest of FL and the country may have an enlightenment. Proof of concept can be powerful.

 

[cirdan]

The problem with Dallas is that they underestimated it's potential and built without regard to accommodate growth. They just can't handle any longer trains at all. Ever. And they are already at minimum headways during busy times where most of the lines converge downtown.

AFAIK they are planning (or maybe already building?) a second cross-downtown line which will definitely take some of the pressure off the first.

I don't really see why they can't run longer trains. They would have to extend some platforms but nothing that can't be fixed without the right sort of vision and will.

IMHO one of the problems in Dallas is not capacity of the lines but capacity of the junctions. Maybe these could do with some tweaking so trains can move faster and so de-block the line.

 

[McIntyre2K7]

Agreed!

But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.

Not so fast. I think it's possible to make it work in Tampa Bay Area. Now this is something I've been working on. This is a mix of commuter rail and BRT with one light rail line from Wesley Chapel to the USF area. I wanted to expand Tampa Union Station so the road to the north was removed. I'm not finished with it yet as the local system hasn't released the updated for the TDP for 2021. Also the Florida Supreme Court struck down the penny sales tax increase from 2018. One of the county commissioners was upset as they have no control over how the funds were distributed as it was required that funds were allocated to exact areas. The county as well as the three cities would split the about 59 percent of the revenue, the local transit agency would get 40% and the remaining 1% would go to the regional transportation planning commission.

Here is map of what I made below.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1FtQbqhj8bB1S6pDlEtxqTd9-9gsmb27k&usp=sharing

It doesn't expand to the Downtown St Pete Area. However if the Rays do decide to leave Tropicana field would be an excellent place for TOD.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Not so fast. I think it's possible to make it work in Tampa Bay Area. Now this is something I've been working on. This is a mix of commuter rail and BRT with one light rail line from Wesley Chapel to the USF area. I wanted to expand Tampa Union Station so the road to the north was removed. I'm not finished with it yet as the local system hasn't released the updated for the TDP for 2021. Also the Florida Supreme Court struck down the penny sales tax increase from 2018. One of the county commissioners was upset as they have no control over how the funds were distributed as it was required that funds were allocated to exact areas. The county as well as the three cities would split the about 59 percent of the revenue, the local transit agency would get 40% and the remaining 1% would go to the regional transportation planning commission.

Here is map of what I made below.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1FtQbqhj8bB1S6pDlEtxqTd9-9gsmb27k&usp=sharing

It doesn't expand to the Downtown St Pete Area. However if the Rays do decide to leave Tropicana field would be an excellent place for TOD.

Wow, this is pretty cool. Seems pretty well thought out! What are the chances of this sort of vision happening?

 

[user 1215]

AFAIK they are planning (or maybe already building?) a second cross-downtown line which will definitely take some of the pressure off the first.

I don't really see why they can't run longer trains. They would have to extend some platforms but nothing that can't be fixed without the right sort of vision and will.

IMHO one of the problems in Dallas is not capacity of the lines but capacity of the junctions. Maybe these could do with some tweaking so trains can move faster and so de-block the line.

I don't think a 4th articulated set would fit at the downtown stations without blocking intersections, not to mention the elevated stations that are pretty much set in stone, or concrete at least.

WOW! I never saw anything about the D2 project! This is incredible! Unfortunately, the Orange and Green lines will come off ALL the existing stations completely without a cross platform transfer available.

Sorry - didn't mean to derail from Tampa.